Re: Voice of the people

["John Gelles" <indexed-savings@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

"Voice of the People" began as a thread with
Congressman Bernie Sanders accusation that Alan
Greenspan and large multinational corporations,
(many domiciled in America) were selling out the
American (and by implication all other nations')
middle and working classes by moving all jobs to
lowest-wage locations.

Sanders implied that this race to the bottom for
wages (and environmental costs) would end with
no customers, no solvent businesses, and no
living people (or life above insect level) in a
poisoned environment.

Henry Liu furnished the Sanders-Greenspan dialog.

Gelles agreed with Sanders. He looked for a way
out. He rejected socialism (government monopoly
in all but small business). He defended a Keynesian-
Lerner spending solution, which Gelles claimed was
constrained only by green production to match the
spending.

Gelles stressed a no-tax system, where individual
private savings allow non-inflationary government
spending (and operations) to drive an economy with
debt-free money -- while for-profit untaxed business
is free to develop and compete with government
(and firm against firm) wherever it can, as in private
banking, agriculture, manufacturing, education,
distribution, etc.

Gelles ends up with a "monetary system of production"
featuring tax-free, managed money created by banks for
profit and debt-free money, as well, created and injected
by government for strategic reasons.

Gelles' system would be very close to a welfare state
on steroids, where savings replace some debt and all
taxes. Savings accumulate until eventually they are
drained by philanthropy small and large.

Now Liu and Santos comment:
---------------------------------------------------------
Liu comments:

        State capitalism should be rejected--not
    socialism. Military spending should be watched
    to avoid irrational war and waste.

        Traditional savings in the real world (not in
    Gelles' imagined world) have lost importance--
    they are replaced by traditional debt.

        There is no need for savings in a modern
    economy except to generate self-fulfilling pre-
    dictions of disasters ahead.

        With money as state credit, capital formation
    through savings is unnecessary, which makes
    capitalism unnecessary.

    --------------------end Liu ---------------------------

    Gelles replies: I agree that savings is not the
    source of capital investment were we to use a
    better monetary system of production. Rather,
    as Liu says and  I agree: Money as state credit
    would perfom the function that permitted some
    people to build facftories while others grow
    food.

    Is capitalism necessary?  Well, a monetary system
    of production is nice to have rather than whatever
    Marx prescribed or wrought.

    --------------------end Gelles-------------------------

Santos comments:

        Speaking to Liu's comments -- I would rather
    attribute overcapacity  [which is a problem only
    IF poor people's income is not raised to allow
    them to buy what they need]  to income distri-
    bution within a country and internationally,
    than to savings.

        It is the increasing disparity in wealth that
    exacerbates overcapacity even making it inevitable.
    Whether money as state credit is a solution is
    another question.

    --------------------end Santos ---------------------------

    Gelles replies: I like Santos acceptance of overcapacity
    in hope of its use to supply poor people in need of more
    purchasing power.

    He should address the general thought of Sanders that
    Greenspan is too focused on prices instead of basic
    human, national and world needs. Then he should chose
    sides between Gelles and the rest of PKT:

            Do we need radical attention to supplementing the
    profit system with an injected money driver to reach
    strategic goals?
            Do we need to reduce or reject taxes to get the
    middle and working classes to elect reformers?
            Can personal private savings in TIPS-like inflation
    protected accounts help replace taxes in the fight against
    inflation? Can lotteries and other government high profit
    operations also help replace taxes?
            Can we get from "here" (the world as it is with
    poverty and pollution) to "there" (the world as Santos
    wants it) ?

    ---------------------- end Gelles -----------------------------

    John Gelles  www.tiea.us/tops.htm