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Re: [TNF] Bubble Everywhere



Yes, I used the same distinction on the issue of government issued money
as state credit, not state debt.

Henry

Warren Mosler wrote:

It's an accounting identity, not a theory!!!

Best!!

warren
--- "Henry C.K. Liu" <hliu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Warren,

I think your view of equilibrium between loan and
savings, while valid
for the golbal economy, does not hold for the US
economy because of
dollar hegemony.

Henry

See:
Stephen Roache on US savings



http://www.morganstanley.com/GEFdata/digests/20030707-mon.html#anchor0

Unfortunately, America’s national saving rate is
plunging into the
danger zone. In the first quarter of 2003, gross
national saving --
households, businesses, and government units,
combined -- fell to 14.0%
of gross national product; that’s down 1.5
percentage points from the
year-earlier rate and fully 4.8 percentage points
below the post-1960
norm of 18.8%. But that’s only the tip of the
iceberg.

The problem is that most of America’s national
saving now shows up in
the form of depreciation -- funds that are earmarked
for the replacement
of worn-out physical assets. In the first quarter of
2003, such
depreciation accounted for fully 94% of total
saving. That means that
the net national saving rate -- that portion of
national saving that is
available to fund the actual expansion of productive
capacity -- fell to
a record low of 0.7% of gross national product in
the first period of
this year. That’s off sharply from the year-earlier
reading of 2.3% and
is well short of the nearly 5% average of the 1990s
and the 11% norm of
the 1960s. There are few macro gauges that tell us
more about an
economy’s internally generated growth capacity.
Sadly, America has all
but depleted its reservoir of net saving -- the
sustenance of
longer-term economic growth.

This problem has profound implications for the US
and the rest of the
world. Lacking in domestically generated net saving,
America has had to
import surplus saving from abroad in order to grow
its economy. In the
parlance of the accounting framework noted above,
the US
saving-investment identity has been finessed by the
willingness of the
rest of the world to provide the funding. In order
to attract that
capital from abroad, America has had to run massive
trade and
current-account deficits. In the first quarter of
2003, the US
current-account deficit hit a record 5.1% of GDP, or
$545 billion (at an
annual rate) -- an annualized shortfall that must be
financed by capital
inflows of slightly in excess of $2 billion per
business day. Never
before has the world had to finance an external
imbalance of that magnitude.

So far, it’s been a “free lunch.” That is, a
growth-starved world has
been more than content to send its surplus saving to
America without
demanding compensation for investing a
disproportionate share of its
capital in dollar-denominated assets. But the United
States is about to
up the ante on this arrangement. Courtesy of
deepening fiscal deficits
in the government sector -- not just at the federal
level but also for
states and localities -- there will likely be
further downward pressure
on US national saving in the years immediately
ahead. Morgan Stanley US
economist David Greenlaw calculates that fiscal
stimulus worth about 1.5
percentage points of GDP will be implemented over
the next four quarters
alone. That suggests that the federal budget deficit
as a share of GDP
will surge into at least the 4.0% to 4.5% range by
mid-2004 -- a
dramatic widening from the 2.7% gap as measured in
the national income
accounts in early 2003. Barring the unlikely event
of a spontaneous
resurgence of private saving, that implies America’s
net national saving
rate could well test the seemingly sacrosanct “zero
threshold” within
the year. And if that’s the case, the gaping US
current-account deficit
will have to widen further, probably into the 6.5%
to 7.0% zone.

In my view, a net national saving rate that falls to
zero could well
represent a critical juncture for the US and for a
US-centric global
economy. It’s one thing to reduce national saving
below historical norms
and rely on the generosity of foreign savers to make
up the difference.
But it’s another thing altogether to abdicate that
responsibility
completely and turn over the funding of net
investment to foreign
savers. And of course it doesn’t stop there. The
“zero line” is just a
number. There is no reason why net national saving
couldn’t go into
negative territory, pushing the current account even
deeper into
deficit. Given the paucity of private sector saving
and rapidly
deteriorating government deficits, that’s exactly
what seems likely to
be in the cards within the next year.

That would be a dangerous first in the modern-day
post-World War II era:
The engine of the global economy has essentially run
out of fuel and
must now turn to the rest of the world for a
supplement. In the end,
that doesn’t work for America and it doesn’t work
for the rest of the
world. A negative net national saving rate leaves
little doubt that an
ever-profligate US economy is on a collision course
with its own future.
It unmasks the ultimate in “short-termism” -- a
preference for current
consumption over the longer-term imperatives of
investment. It’s a macro
outcome that can only be financed by ever-rising
indebtedness -- both
domestic and foreign. America has record levels of
private sector
indebtedness and is now increasing its claims on the
world’s saving
pool. That perpetuates an exceedingly vicious cycle
-- in effect,
forcing the rest of the world to keep saving in
order to finance the
excesses of US consumption.

To me, all this smacks of a looming flashpoint.
America’s negative net
national saving rate could well be the wake-up call
to the rest of the
world that the days of US-centric global growth are
nearing an end. The
denial won’t be easy to crack. In a mercantilist
world, with
cross-border trade the main lubricant of growth,
there is a great
incentive to ignore external imbalances -- in
effect, to pretend they
don’t matter. In such a regime, nations are more
than content to forsake
domestic demand and maintain undervalued currencies
-- thereby exporting
goods, services, and surplus saving to consumer-led
economies like
America. Some have argued that there is no limit to
such an arrangement,
especially given America’s role as the world’s
reserve currency. I have
my doubts. First of all, the dollar is no longer the
world’s sole
reserve currency -- the euro is now an emerging
alternative. Moreover,
reserve currencies do not deserve special
dispensation from economic
fundamentals -- they can also become undervalued and
overvalued. That’s
exactly what has occurred to the US dollar
repeatedly over the past 25
years. And I suspect it’s about to happen again.

Warren Mosler wrote:

This "recovery" is engineered by the Fed pumping
liquidity into the
economy, not by fundamentals.


They lowered interest rates a bit, but beyond that
there's no such thing as 'pumping in liquidity.'

 The problem of an


interest rate policy is
that its effectiveness has been diluted by
derivatives and swaps.


The problem is that for every $ borrowed there is

a $

saved, and there are $3T additional (net) savings

that

consists of govt debt held by non govt agents.
So dropping rates cuts non govt income somewhat.

And

the only channel for expanded agg demand from

interest

rate policy is a sufficiently large propensity to
spend of borrowers vs savers to more than over

come

that.


The


Fed just released its minutes on the Discount Rate
meetings between
March 31 and May 1, 2003. The San Francisco and
Boston banks voted for a
quarter point cut in the discount rate on April 24
and the NY Bank voted
May 1 to cut half a point.  The Fed cut the DR
quarter point in June to
2% having kept it constant in May.  The FFR was

cut

to 1%. A whole
percentage point spread is considered big, the

norm

between the DR and
the FFR is normally half and point.  The basis for
the cut was given by
SF and Boston as "uncertainty in geopolitical
environment, persistence
in business risk aversion, and risks of a weak
economy."  The NY Bank
cited "unemployment, retail pessimism, lack of
business investment."

Interest rate policy in this complex financial
system tends to
neutralize its own moves, shifting the gain and

pain

from sector to

sector and from market participants to other

market

participants, while
stubbornly keeping 3/4 of the economy down.


Yes, partially for reasons I stated above.

 The 1/4


that is up
temporarily is viewed as signs of "recovery",

giving

false hopes and
speculative moves.


Yes. Only sufficient deficit spending can release

the

fiscal drag dampening the US economy. Japan has

done

that and is on the mend.

w

We have seen that happened in


Japan for more than a
decade. The difference is that in Japan, the
government absorbs the
pain.  In the US, the pain is passed on to the
public immediately, but
1/4 of them will keep the spending limping along.
The other difference
is that the US has a more aggressive debt culture
than Japan.  Just
don't get caught swimming without your trunk when
the tide goes out.

Henry C.K. Liu
























So, it



is not
surprising at all that the stock markets are

holding


up as
the bond markets are dipping.


Right, that's the recover story- Fed will raise

rates


back from 'distress' levels to 'normal' levels

quickly


as soon as the economy recovers for real.





  Henry's warnings are cogent, however.  If
rising interest
rates in Japan pull Japanese money home, the

dollar


could
really take a hit and all kinds of funny stuff

could


happen.


Doubt the boj is ready to let the yen get strong.




Also, clearly the housing bubble is fragile as
mortgage
rates in the US have almost surely bottomed out.


True.




Why do we see references to "Bernanke

stepping


in
to hold up the bond market.?"  The power on the

Fed


remains Alan Greenspan, not Bernanke. Is this

more


Gang8 fantasies?


I vote yes.

Also, check out the plan we submitted to St.

Croix

regarding the public housing authority at
www.mosler.org.  It should apply to most any

public


housing around the world.

Warren




Barkley Rosser
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Santos" <evs@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <TheNewForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "EGroup PKT"
<pkt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [TNF] Bubble Everywhere





The article below supplements what Henry just

posted. I continue to wonder



if Bernanke is stepping in to hold up the bond

market. Even as I write I am



surprised that the rally in the stock market

world


wide continues. Is the



liquidity coming from the bond market? The

rally

in the stock market is a



bet on the theory that inflation will increase

real asset prices and as



liquidity is created from bond liquidation,

more

so if the Fed is
supporting



the bond market at these lofty prices, the

rally

in the market will



continue. Nick, do you have yields on the

10-year

note going back several



years? It would be great if you could post them

in


chart form.



Money has nowhere of real substance to go to

but

the choice of the moment



are stock market bets. I would think money will

eventually turn to the



currency markets and another wild ride will

develop. I think this is what



Henry means when he said that all markets are

now

trading markets. Money



will flow from one market to another. I would

think that gold will benefit



as a consequence.

Any opinions out there?

Gary Santos



US Treasuries hammered for second day, Fed

faulted


Thursday June 26, 4:37 pm ET
By Wayne Cole



http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/030626/markets_bonds_6.html

(Adds late prices, comment)
NEW YORK, June 26 (Reuters) - Treasuries were

hammered again on Thursday as



a massive corporate offering from GM tempted

away

investors still smarting

from what they saw as the Federal Reserve's

half-hearted easing in monetary



policy.

The benchmark 10-year note shed over a point in

price for a second day



running while yields shot to six-week highs

above

3.50 percent.



Yields have risen over 30 basis points since

the

Fed delivered its quarter



percentage point cut in interest rates, so

undoing


much of the recent
easing



in financial conditions.

Meanwhile, such was the deluge of demand for

General Motors Corp.'s



(NYSE:GM - News) bond issue that it was

repeatedly


raised in size until it



totaled $17 billion, making it the largest

corporate bond sale in history.



As a result, investors dumped Treasuries both

to

make room for the



higher-yielding paper and to hedge against

adverse


movements in yields on



the deal.

"It's been another wild day," said J.P. Marra,

managing director of



government bond trading at Lehman Brothers.

"The

GM deal was a big part of



the down-move today. It's such a lot of paper

and,


what with investors
being



upset with the Fed, it's been a double whammy."

The market took further umbrage when minutes of

the Fed's previous meeting



in May showed members played down the risk of

deflation, so pushing out any



chance of it adopting unconventional measures

such


as buying longer-date



Treasuries.

Marra feared further pain for bonds in the

short

term, but also felt
yields



were nearing levels that would be attractive to

many longer-term players.



"The Fed disappointed a lot of people but at

least


it looks like keeping



rates around 1.0 percent for a long time to

come.

Now with the five-year



nearing 2.5 percent, it's starting to offer a

compelling carry for



investors," said Marra.

The five-year note (US5YT=RR) lost a hefty

19/32

in price on Thursday, so



forcing its yield to 2.45 percent from 2.32

percent on Thursday and a recent



record low near 2.00 percent.

The carnage was widespread, with the two-year

yield (US2YT=RR) leaping to



1.40 percent from 1.29 percent and a trough of

just 1.09 percent on



Wednesday.

The 10-year note (US10YT=RR) sank a full point

in

price for a yield of
3.53



percent from 3.41 percent. The 30-year bond

(US30YT=RR) collapsed 1-18/32,



taking its yield to 4.56 from 4.46 percent.

MISUNDERSTOOD, AGAIN

The spike in yields will likely see mortgage

rates


rise and could crimp
the



rush of refinancing that has been supporting

consumer incomes. It can also



become self-feeding since holders of mortgage

debt


will have less reason
to



hedge against prepayment and may sell some of

their Treasuries, so forcing



yields yet higher.

That is an outcome analysts assume the Fed

would

want to avoid and there
was



talk in the market that officials were

perturbed

by the jump in yields.



"Apparently the Fed thinks it's been

'misunderstood' again," said one trader



at a primary dealer. "Well, if they just said

what


they mean instead of



obscuring it in central bank speak, we wouldn't

have these problems."



He suspected Fed board members would soon be

offering calming words to the



market, trying to pull yields back down, and

noted


Chairman Alan Greenspan



would have a perfect opportunity to clarify

their

policy when he testifies



to the House in mid-July.

Meantime, the market would be extra-sensitive

to

the flow of economic data



fearing that any signs of strength will reduce

the


chance of further
policy



moves, conventional or otherwise.

Thursday's numbers were too mixed to offer much

of


a guide. Weekly jobless



claims came in at a lower than expected

404,000,

but first quarter gross



domestic product growth was revised down to 1.4

percent from an already



sluggish 1.9 percent.


http://bonds.yahoo.com/rates.html U.S. Treasury Bonds Maturity Yield Yesterday Last Week Last Month 3 Month 0.77 0.75 0.73 0.94 6 Month 0.90 0.88 0.89 0.96 2 Year 1.32 1.29 1.28 1.23 5 Year 2.55 2.48 2.40 2.26 10 Year 3.70 3.65 3.51 3.34 30 Year 4.72 4.68 4.55 4.39




----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry C.K. Liu" <hliu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <pkt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;

<a-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;



<TheNewForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 11:48 PM
Subject: [TNF] Bubble Everywhere





The burst of the equity bubble produced the

bond

bubble and the housing



bubble. As investors fleed the stock market,

funds poured into bonds,



bidding up prices and lowering effective

long-term interest rates. As



the Fed lowered Fed Funds rate targets, low

mortgage payments pushed up



housing prices, producing a housing bubble.

The

burst of the bond



bubble will threaten the housing bubble, the

bursting of which will



exacerbate aggregate demand in construction,

for

labor, for home



appliances and supplies, which will in turn

affect corporate earning



which will torpedo the current "recovery".

The

collapse of the Japanese



bond market will also force the Japanese to

sell

US Treasuries, adding



to the problem. The smart money is already

borrowing short term,



through the repo market and its related

instruments, to invest in



10-year treasuries. Another debt bubble is

building.



Bubbles are now pathological. Fund managers

are

all forced to respond



to quarterly results. Herd behavior is a

given.

The aim is to beat the



market, not to invest in the market. S&P Fixed

Income Committee has just



recommended a cut back of 5% on 10-year bonds

in

fixed income



portfolios, in response to falling bond

prices.

The 10-year bond is now



a terminal instrument in that the rate

advantage

in the currenct



deflationary period is not expected to

compensate to the price fall due



to eventual inflation over its 10-year life

span. Thus 10-year bonds



are now a short-term trading instrument, not a

long-term investment



instrument. In fact, if you do not follow the

market daily, you have no



business being in the market. So long to the

long term investor. When



all investments are short-term, it is a

trader's

market, turning the



economy into a horse race. The difference is

that in a horse race, the



betting odds on a horse do not affect its

performance. That is not true



in an economy driven by equity and credit

prices. The whole market can



bet on the wrong sector and make it a winner

in

the next quarter, but it



may finish last in the race.

Wealth preservation is now a losing game.

Asset

is becoming a



liability.  Income is all.


Henry C.K. Liu


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=====
Warren Mosler, www.mosler.org
c/o James River Capital Corp
5007 Chandler's Wharf, Suite 201/202
Christiansted, USVI  00820
340-719-8813 office phone
340-719-8804 Fax
Primary email contact:  mosler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com




===== Warren Mosler, www.mosler.org c/o James River Capital Corp 5007 Chandler's Wharf, Suite 201/202 Christiansted, USVI 00820 340-719-8813 office phone 340-719-8804 Fax Primary email contact: mosler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com





=====
Warren Mosler, www.mosler.org
c/o James River Capital Corp
5007 Chandler's Wharf, Suite 201/202
Christiansted, USVI  00820
340-719-8813 office phone
340-719-8804 Fax
Primary email contact:  mosler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com





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