Re: the morality of massacre

[Clifford Poirot <cpoirot@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Having taught many of those students both in Bulgaria and Romania, I was
constantly amazed at the abilities of some of those students. Having
witnessed the pedagogy of some of their teachers, I was doubly amazed.

The University system in these countries was highly selective. Perhaps it
was a case of where bright, motivated students learned in spite of, not
because of, the system.

-----Original Message-----
From: J. Barkley Rosser, Jr. [mailto:rosserjb@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 1:43 PM
To: Sven R Larson
Cc: Post Keynesian Thought
Subject: Re: the morality of massacre


Sven,
      My only response to this is to note that one
should not denigrate the educational system of
the former Soviet Union.  One can fuss about
all the political propaganda that went on in it,
and the avoiding of certain topics, although I
am afraid there is plenty of this in the US and
other countries as well.  But, the bottom line is
that it was excellent, one of the world's best,
especially in mathematics and the physical sciences.
Barkley Rosser
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sven R Larson" <larson@xxxxxx>
To: "J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." <rosserjb@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 5:53 AM
Subject: Re: the morality of massacre


> Barkley,
>
> I don't know what statistics you base your comparisons on, but I hope
> they're very far away from late '80s official sources. The USSR, as you
> probably know, was a country where schools performed exams and
> competitions that never took place, only to please central planners, and
> where the railway authority couldn't even estimate the digits you'd need
> to count the number of freight train locomotives available in the
> country.
>
> And yes, there is a huge difference between former Soviet Union and its
> former satellites in East Europe. Many of the satellites (e.g. Poland,
> Hungary and Estonia) have a long history of cultural influences from
> Western Europe, with emigrants moving to Germany, Italy and Scandinavia.
> They sent impulses back on free enterprise and democracy, and older
> generations who remembered independence and democracy in, e.g.,
> Tchekoslovakia, kept these ideals alive. There was, simply, a
> preparedness that benefitted these small countries - and their mere size
> probably helped them as they are relatively easy to govern compared to
> Russia.
>
> That said, please keep in mind that when speaking of how these countries
> have performed it has been way too early to look at numbers. They've had
> to use half of the last decade only to get the free world institutions
> right, to throw out command economics and learn free enterprise from the
> ground up WITHOUT being totally penetrated by the Russian mafia (as has
> happened elsewhere in the former Soviet empire). I'd say these
> institutions are in place in most of the former Soviet satellites, which
> in itself is fantastic accomplishment and shows admirable social
> performance. Now that these institutions are in place and relatively
> stable, it is time to start looking at numbers. When you tear down one
> form for governing the state as well as the economy and replace it with
> another, and do it from the ground up, you do have to be patient.
>
> Institutions first, then numbers.
>
>
> Institutionally Keynesian,
>
>
> /srl
>
>
> "J. Barkley Rosser, Jr." wrote:
> >
> > Sven,
> >      Who has "done so well since the fall of the Wall"?
> > The latest stats suggest that in Europe there are four
> > countries that now may have higher real per capita
> > incomes than they did in 1989: Poland, Slovenia,
> > Hungary, and Slovakia, not Czech Republic or the
> > Baltic states, although Estonia is probably getting close.
> > This is not even the same as saying they would be
> > better today if the Wall had not fallen.
> >        Of course the PRC (China, or Zhongguo) has a
> > far higher real per capita income than it did in 1989,
> > as does Vietnam (of course North Korea does not,
> > and I'm not sure about Cuba).
> >        We do not know what the counterfactual would
> > be if Viktor Grishin had defeated Mikhail Gorbachev
> > for CPSU General Secretary in 1985.  But it is not
> > surprising that Gorby received about 1/2% of the
> > vote in the 1996 presidential election in Russia, although
> > former KGBite and Andropovite, Putin, is rehabilitating
> > him.  It remains a very hard fact, that probably the real
> > per capita income of the median voter throughout the
> > former Soviet bloc (and certainly the former Soviet Union)
> > would be higher today if the USSR, COMECON, and
> > the Warsaw Pact all still existed.
> >        This is a far different thing than saying that they should
> > still exist, however.  I personally do value freedom and
> > democracy and all that, even if they have cost a lot of
> > people an awful lot.  But, please, let us not indulge ourselves
> > in fantasies here (encore, je suis desolee, Louis-P.).
> > Barkley Rosser
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Sven R Larson" <larson@xxxxxx>
> > To: <pkt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 4:49 AM
> > Subject: Re: the morality of massacre
> >
> > > Henry,
> > >
> > > I'm amazed every time I hear someone who has had the privilege of
moving
> > > from dictatorship and oppression to freedom and individual integrity
> > > fail to appreciate or at least acknowledge that privilege. If liberty
is
> > > "Western style" then why has the Chinese government opened up part of
> > > the economy for capitalism? The core, the driving force of capitalism
is
> > > precisely "Western style" individual liberty. Europe's economic
history
> > > can tell us a lot about the value of such individual liberty;
actually,
> > > the concept "laissez faire" was established as a label for this
liberty
> > > back in pre-revolution France, and was backed by more comprehensive
> > > business-economic theorizing by, e.g., Locke in his 2nd treatise of
> > > government. Economic prosperity didn't emerge in Europe until
> > > communist-style aristocratic governments had lost power.
> > >
> > > What Chinese communists have yet to learn is that this individual
> > > liberty needs two legs: the opportunity for economic prosperity and
the
> > > ability of individuals to freely form the institutional framework of
> > > their business endeavor. This second leg is simply traditional liberal
> > > democracy.
> > >
> > > Why has the Czech republic, Hungary, Slovenia, the Baltic countries
and
> > > Poland done so well since the fall of the Wall???
> > >
> > > /srl
> > >
> > > "Alan G. Isaac" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, Henry C.K. Liu wrote:
> > > > > As to you idiotic "come clean" challenge, I do not find it
necessary
> > > > > to respond to you condemnation of China as deficient in Western
> > > > > style individual liberty.
> > > >
> > > > Oh, but you do.  And you have.  And now it appears you are growing
> > > > increasingly embarrassed as you try to deny the obvious.  You cannot
> > > > successfully pretend that ``freedom'' and ``democracy'' are simply
> > > > Western notions with no moral import for Chinese politics.
> > > >
> > > > The reason you will not ``come clean'' is becoming obvious.  You are
> > > > not willing to condemn the Tiananmen massacre because that steps
> > > > outside of the apologetics to which you limit yourself, but you are
not
> > > > willing to clearly state your support for the action because you
know
> > > > that will bring you world-wide moral condemnation.  If I am wrong, I
> > > > await your clear statement.
> > > >
> > > > > How does one seriously respond to informed challenges like:
> > > > > "including the recent slaughter of thousands of citizens who dared
> > > > > to suggest that China is ready for greater individual liberties"?
> > > >
> > > > That was a reference to Tiananmen, Henry, and the killings of
Chinese
> > > > citizens by your beloved PLA. Are my numbers off?  Please correct me
> > > > (without citing Chinese government statements please, since these
have
> > > > consistently conflicted with the reports of witnesses).  Of course
it
> > > > is hard to know what happened, since the Chinese government forced
the
> > > > media out. An interesting discussion of China's approach to freedom
of
> > the
> > > > press can be found at
> > > >   http://www.nmis.org/Gate/links/liesink.html
> > > > (But I suppose you will claim that notions of evidence and
> > > > truth are Western Notions!) Perhaps it was only hundreds killed and
> > > > thousands injured. Or prehaps it is an event you do not like to
> > > > consider ``recent'' because it shows how obviously false your
> > > > ``Western Notions'' fable is.
> > > >
> > > > Even today the official stance in China is a lack of shame about the
> > > > Tiananmen massacres.
> > > >   http://www.timesofindia.com/070301/07nbrs10.htm
> > > > This is itself a source of shame for China.
> > > >
> > > > Alan
> > > >
> > > > PS In the interest of full disclosure, I should perhaps mention the
> > > > current detention on unspecified charges of an American University
> > > > faculty fellow by China.
> > > >  http://www.eagle.american.edu/section.cfm/10/2/755
> > > > Henry is invited to make any relevant disclosures of his own.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sven R Larson
> > > PhD; Assistant professor of economics
> > > Department of Social Sciences, Bldg. 22.2
> > > Roskilde University
> > > Pb 260
> > > DK-4000 Roskilde, Denmark
> > > Phone: (+45) 4674 2910
> > >
>
> --
> Sven R Larson
> PhD; Assistant professor of economics
> Department of Social Sciences, Bldg. 22.2
> Roskilde University
> Pb 260
> DK-4000 Roskilde, Denmark
> Phone: (+45) 4674 2910
>