Re: Rorty on socialism

["Harry Veeder" <veed0001@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Materialism is definitely being challenged...by what exactly I don't
know. Personally I favour a new dualism where consciousness
has always been present as in idealism but it is interwoven with an
unconscious or physical universe. This new dualism is not plagued
by the deterministic materialism of cartesian dualism. If anything
has evloved it is self-consciousness through the interaction of
consciousness with unconsciousness.

Harry Veeder

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>From: thorthor <thorthor@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>To: POST-KEYNESIAN THOUGHT <pkt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: Re: Rorty on socialism
>Date: Fri, Feb 11, 2000, 11:27 pm
>

>After reading about the fading fortunes of socialist thought in terms of its
>changing language and debate, I thought, why not offer an even more different
>take on the issue.  What follows is in some sense a 'stream of consciousness',
>but also based on long personal experience. Perhaps it is something I may later
>edit and expand into an article.  I hope you find it stimulating. And please feel
>free to react -- but be nice, I am going out on a limb here <g>.
>
>Actually, I believe a paradigm shift is underway on the discourse of progressive
>liberalism. I suspect many western intellectuals have limited knowledge of what
>it is. Hopefully this little offering will help to fill such a gap.  Let me
>present my thesis up front. It is this: a paradigm shift involving the foundation
>of the western 'empirical' conception of the world  is underway, where
>'materialism' is being replaced by 'idealism.' How far along this process is, I
>cannot judge, but I think it is further along than most realise.
>
>An interesting phenomena in world history is how physically conquering nations,
>even while imposing their cultures on the subjugated peoples, are themselves
>ultimately suffused and subverted from the inside by the foreign ideas of the
>conquered. The conversion of the Roman empire to christianity is one magnificent
>example.  After centuries of western colonial rule of Africa, Central and South
>America and Asia, the back flow of ideas emerged in the early 19th century.  New
>language and symbols began to arrive on the scene  in the form of an ancient
>cosmology from the east. These 'foreign' ideas have been coming ashore in the
>west subtly and almost imperceptibly but with ever greater strength since.
>Arthur Schopenauer (1788-1860) was an early advocate of "Brahmanism". He sought
>to infuse German philosophy with these ideas, but found barren ground to implant
>them in. His work, The World as Will and Representation was influential, but
>never found center ground. The address of  Vivekananda  at the Parliament of
>Religions in 1893 in Chicago was a more considerable turning point, after which,
>as the new century opened, a rising trickle of teachers came from the east,
>including Krishnamurti, Parmanhansa Yogananda and others.  During the 1940s, yoga
>was presented to the west as an alternative physical exercise, while in fact it
>was a branch of an alien cosmology.  In the peace and counter-culture 1960s, this
>flow re-accelerated, with the spread of meditation groups associated with the
>likes of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi,  Bhagwan Rajsneesh and the Krishna Consciousness
>movement. There were many short lived western variants. Buddhism also began to
>spread.
>
>Essentially, these cosmologies are idealistic -- in that the world is understood
>to be in some sense a conscious phenomena. Life doesn't occur by accident,
>because it is but one stage in the evolution of conciousness. Life becomes an
>essential condition of matter, and is likely to be found at various stages of
>development throughout the created universe.  Contrast this with the dominant
>religion of the west, Christianity, which had slowly become stultified under the
>'descartian' onslaught of the likes of Marx and Nietzche, even preceeded by the
>discoveries of Copernicus -- and under the increasing and practical
>professionalism of its leaders.  In a materialistic and scientific world, God
>almost needed to taken on some specific material form to make sense anymore.  It
>was in this materialistic landscape that the more subtle cosmology of the east
>began to find its way, gradually overcoming cynical and skeptical attitudes.  An
>early result, was the rise of various new age philosophies, but these were
>riddled with confusions, emanating from the hallucinogenic counter-culture and
>hedonism of the 1960s.  Howard Berman's "The Reenchantment of the World" was an
>early effort to explain the ongoing shift.
>
>Soon, more spirited and robust variants emerged.  Bhuddism found its expression
>in the Naropa Institute of Boulder CO,  the Japanese Shinto movement and Zen
>Bhuddism took hold.   Meanwhile, the ideas of a Bengali railroad worker, PR
>Sarkar (1921-1990) gave vent to a socio-spiritual movement with a socio-economic
>message, the PROgressive Utilisation Theory (PROUT).  These ideas claim that the
>human being is not just skin,  bones and bio-electric circuitry, which in turn is
>conditioned through socialisation, but that all beings are living reflections of
>the divine consciousness itself. All created beings are evolving in successive
>incarnations in "an eternal dance of the macrocosm",  where the law of karma
>gently guides them to higher stages of consciousness.  An advocate of these ideas
>is the  economist Ravi Batra, at SMU in Dallas.
>
>At the East-West Center of the University of Hawaii, Johan Galtung and Sohail
>Inayatullah have done pioneering work in "translating" this cosmological shift
>into the privileged discourse of the west, including in their work "Macrohistory
>and Macrohistorians".
>
>Essentially, the discourse of liberalism is moving away from the lifeless
>concepts of material consumption, investment and profit -- and to the birth right
>of people for a decent socio-economic existence, itself required as basis for
>spiritual evolution.  In this world view, the individual is not only a completely
>seperate entity. And society is not only a gathering place of such individuals,
>but a dynamic concept, where individuals move together through time and space
>towards common goals.  As such the liberal appeal is no longer just to the mind
>for a more equal distribution of consumable materials, but increasingly to the
>heart to ultimately improve the conscious experience.
>
>So, the future, my friends, may not be empirical materialism, but something
>called empirical idealism.  This sounds like a funny mix, as most would think one
>excludes the other. But scientific empiricism may find just as great a use and a
>wider scope in a conceptual framework of a grander reality.  As such, the
>civilisational project of western modernity may be at a fork in the road. In one
>direction lies the past, to a  consolidation of its achievements, but also its
>stagnation. In the other direction, is a transformed western civilisation,
>suffused with a form of ancient tantric mysticism.
>
>Perhaps I leave you with the comforting thought that this future may appear not
>in saffron robes but, perhaps, in white lab coats??  Whatever the future will
>bring, I expect materialistic socialist thought will increasingly find itself a
>stranger in a strange land.  The future humanism, will necessarily also include
>the welfare of animals. That is why, for instance, many progressive idealistic
>thinkers are vegetarians.
>
>I have not mentioned what the implications of economics could be in all this. Who
>knows. However, I would think we would have no reason for fear, that Keynes'
>future vision for economists should still be good, including his assurance for
>their equivalent respectability to that of dentists.
>
>I hope you enjoyed this take on the issue.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Thor Thorgeirsson
>
>
>Harry Veeder wrote:
>
>> ----------
>> >From: "Alan G. Isaac" <aisaac@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >To: POST-KEYNESIAN THOUGHT <pkt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >Subject: Rorty on socialism
>> >Date: Fri, Feb 11, 2000, 8:13 am
>> >
>>
>> >This may interest some on pkt
>> >(and infuriate others).
>> >Alan Isaac
>> >
>> >Richard Rorty, "For a more banal politics".
>> >
>> <snip>
>> >It is going to take a long period of readjustment for us Western leftist
>> >intellectuals to comprehend that the word "socialism" has been drained of
>> >force--as have been all the other words that drew their force from the idea
>> >that an alternative to capitalism was available.  Not only are we going to
>> >have to stop using the term "capitalist economy" as if we knew what a
>> >functioning non-capitalist economy looked like but we are going to have to
>> >stop using the term "bourgeois cultures" as if we knew what a viable
>> >non-bourgeois culture in an industrialized society would look like.
>>
>> As generalists, Marx and Plato were wrong
>> but this does not mean Rorty is generally right.
>>
>> I agree with Rorty that the language of socialism
>> has become an impediment to human progress even if the
>> underlying sentiments have quietly changed for
>> the better.
>>
>> I believe a "shepherd" economy is preferable
>> to either a "laize-faire" or a "planned" economy.
>> A shepherd provides feedback to guide the flock
>> to greener pastures..
>>
>> <snip>
>> >What is so surprising and refreshing about Havel's tone, to my mind, is that
>> >he seems prepared to go all the way in replacing theoretical insight with
>> >groundless hope and trial and error. As he says in the interviews collected
>> >as Disturbing the Peace, "hope is not prognostication." Throughout those
>> >interviews, he emphasizes his lack of interest in underlying forces and
>> >historical trends.
>> <snip>
>>
>> Havel is right that "hope is not prognostication". However he is wrong
>> that hope can be groundless. Hope is grounded in the present
>> not the future. We need to be *certain* of where we are *now*
>> (rather than where we are  going) to have hope. This is "true" hope.
>> "False" hope flows from expectations about the future.
>> When we have true hope we are able to face the uncertain future
>> without contracts or liquidity.
>>
>> Calling for trial and error with no understanding of the spiritual
>> dymanics of hope is dumb. Such "experimentalists" are free to perform
>> social experiments on themsleves if they so desire, but I am
>> tired of participating in *their* social experiments -- socialist
>> capitalist or otherwise.
>>
>> Harry Veeder
>
>