Re: Rorty on socialism =

["Ronald Calitri" <calitrir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Thor on history!

Wow (for the latter), but a bit stultified (both, tho more the former). The
"influences" you suggest having arrived at
the end of the nineteenth century were repetitions of similar occasions
across the last three thousand years. The PROUT Batra stuff is Hindu
mythology
that was already detectable in that of the Norse.
    As to the question of religion in economics: "its in there!" To my mind
the best employment theory is yet to emerge from someone who
has read well the Tibetan Book of the Dead. So I do agree with your premise,
if sighingly.
    I also agree with Henry about "what's a comin'," but with a bit of
nostalgia for the 1960's and BobDyln , or was it the 1370's leading to Wat
Tyler?
    As to Rorty, in response to Mine, I actually find Thor's more relevant
than Rorty's, if less well-researched.
    So far though, there has been absolutely no recognition of the good
established for the aggregate economy by the (what shall we call them)
"Thor's Cosmalists". Perhaps Thor has another opinion? Mine is that
physiocratic surface language had the king closest to god and take it from
there.
    As to capitalism v. socialism; the greatest part of this tragi-comic
debate over the past few decades has been watching the two sides berate each
other on false pretenses,, while at the developed countries the government
component of economic activity crept up amidst the terribly harmful and
unnecessary attempts to cut the heads of the poor at political hands.  The
lesson, for those who wish the economy to be operated on the basis of
individual abilities, is that an increasing public investment in maintaining
these is necessary. The lesson for those who already knew that and were
trying to enhance it, is that  it is not possible to simply to eradicate the
practice of "cashing in the chits" from the successful "herding" operations
among the populations so typical of their competitors. The herding went on
nevertheless.
    As to the "eternal" debate, Max has opened the door to the next
half-century's answer. With all those surpluses, there is a great cheer
worthy of the Socialists, most of whom now call themselves Democrats and
some who are Republicans (yup) to adapt the traditional football fight chant
of the students at Groton to the purposes of public enhancements:

 "We'll buy you!"



Chiao,
Ronald Calitri
----- Original Message -----
From: thorthor <thorthor@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: POST-KEYNESIAN THOUGHT <pkt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: Rorty on socialism


> After reading about the fading fortunes of socialist thought in terms of
its
> changing language and debate, I thought, why not offer an even more
different
> take on the issue.  What follows is in some sense a 'stream of
consciousness',
> but also based on long personal experience. Perhaps it is something I may
later
> edit and expand into an article.  I hope you find it stimulating. And
please feel
> free to react -- but be nice, I am going out on a limb here <g>.
>
> Actually, I believe a paradigm shift is underway on the discourse of
progressive
> liberalism. I suspect many western intellectuals have limited knowledge of
what
> it is. Hopefully this little offering will help to fill such a gap.  Let
me
> present my thesis up front. It is this: a paradigm shift involving the
foundation
> of the western 'empirical' conception of the world  is underway, where
> 'materialism' is being replaced by 'idealism.' How far along this process
is, I
> cannot judge, but I think it is further along than most realise.
>
> An interesting phenomena in world history is how physically conquering
nations,
> even while imposing their cultures on the subjugated peoples, are
themselves
> ultimately suffused and subverted from the inside by the foreign ideas of
the
> conquered. The conversion of the Roman empire to christianity is one
magnificent
> example.  After centuries of western colonial rule of Africa, Central and
South
> America and Asia, the back flow of ideas emerged in the early 19th
century.  New
> language and symbols began to arrive on the scene  in the form of an
ancient
> cosmology from the east. These 'foreign' ideas have been coming ashore in
the
> west subtly and almost imperceptibly but with ever greater strength since.
> Arthur Schopenauer (1788-1860) was an early advocate of "Brahmanism". He
sought
> to infuse German philosophy with these ideas, but found barren ground to
implant
> them in. His work, The World as Will and Representation was influential,
but
> never found center ground. The address of  Vivekananda  at the Parliament
of
> Religions in 1893 in Chicago was a more considerable turning point, after
which,
> as the new century opened, a rising trickle of teachers came from the
east,
> including Krishnamurti, Parmanhansa Yogananda and others.  During the
1940s, yoga
> was presented to the west as an alternative physical exercise, while in
fact it
> was a branch of an alien cosmology.  In the peace and counter-culture
1960s, this
> flow re-accelerated, with the spread of meditation groups associated with
the
> likes of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi,  Bhagwan Rajsneesh and the Krishna
Consciousness
> movement. There were many short lived western variants. Buddhism also
began to
> spread.
>
> Essentially, these cosmologies are idealistic -- in that the world is
understood
> to be in some sense a conscious phenomena. Life doesn't occur by accident,
> because it is but one stage in the evolution of conciousness. Life becomes
an
> essential condition of matter, and is likely to be found at various stages
of
> development throughout the created universe.  Contrast this with the
dominant
> religion of the west, Christianity, which had slowly become stultified
under the
> 'descartian' onslaught of the likes of Marx and Nietzche, even preceeded
by the
> discoveries of Copernicus -- and under the increasing and practical
> professionalism of its leaders.  In a materialistic and scientific world,
God
> almost needed to taken on some specific material form to make sense
anymore.  It
> was in this materialistic landscape that the more subtle cosmology of the
east
> began to find its way, gradually overcoming cynical and skeptical
attitudes.  An
> early result, was the rise of various new age philosophies, but these were
> riddled with confusions, emanating from the hallucinogenic counter-culture
and
> hedonism of the 1960s.  Howard Berman's "The Reenchantment of the World"
was an
> early effort to explain the ongoing shift.
>
> Soon, more spirited and robust variants emerged.  Bhuddism found its
expression
> in the Naropa Institute of Boulder CO,  the Japanese Shinto movement and
Zen
> Bhuddism took hold.   Meanwhile, the ideas of a Bengali railroad worker,
PR
> Sarkar (1921-1990) gave vent to a socio-spiritual movement with a
socio-economic
> message, the PROgressive Utilisation Theory (PROUT).  These ideas claim
that the
> human being is not just skin,  bones and bio-electric circuitry, which in
turn is
> conditioned through socialisation, but that all beings are living
reflections of
> the divine consciousness itself. All created beings are evolving in
successive
> incarnations in "an eternal dance of the macrocosm",  where the law of
karma
> gently guides them to higher stages of consciousness.  An advocate of
these ideas
> is the  economist Ravi Batra, at SMU in Dallas.
>
> At the East-West Center of the University of Hawaii, Johan Galtung and
Sohail
> Inayatullah have done pioneering work in "translating" this cosmological
shift
> into the privileged discourse of the west, including in their work
"Macrohistory
> and Macrohistorians".
>
> Essentially, the discourse of liberalism is moving away from the lifeless
> concepts of material consumption, investment and profit -- and to the
birth right
> of people for a decent socio-economic existence, itself required as basis
for
> spiritual evolution.  In this world view, the individual is not only a
completely
> seperate entity. And society is not only a gathering place of such
individuals,
> but a dynamic concept, where individuals move together through time and
space
> towards common goals.  As such the liberal appeal is no longer just to the
mind
> for a more equal distribution of consumable materials, but increasingly to
the
> heart to ultimately improve the conscious experience.
>
> So, the future, my friends, may not be empirical materialism, but
something
> called empirical idealism.  This sounds like a funny mix, as most would
think one
> excludes the other. But scientific empiricism may find just as great a use
and a
> wider scope in a conceptual framework of a grander reality.  As such, the
> civilisational project of western modernity may be at a fork in the road.
In one
> direction lies the past, to a  consolidation of its achievements, but also
its
> stagnation. In the other direction, is a transformed western civilisation,
> suffused with a form of ancient tantric mysticism.
>
> Perhaps I leave you with the comforting thought that this future may
appear not
> in saffron robes but, perhaps, in white lab coats??  Whatever the future
will
> bring, I expect materialistic socialist thought will increasingly find
itself a
> stranger in a strange land.  The future humanism, will necessarily also
include
> the welfare of animals. That is why, for instance, many progressive
idealistic
> thinkers are vegetarians.
>
> I have not mentioned what the implications of economics could be in all
this. Who
> knows. However, I would think we would have no reason for fear, that
Keynes'
> future vision for economists should still be good, including his assurance
for
> their equivalent respectability to that of dentists.
>
> I hope you enjoyed this take on the issue.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Thor Thorgeirsson
>
>
> Harry Veeder wrote:
>
> > ----------
> > >From: "Alan G. Isaac" <aisaac@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >To: POST-KEYNESIAN THOUGHT <pkt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >Subject: Rorty on socialism
> > >Date: Fri, Feb 11, 2000, 8:13 am
> > >
> >
> > >This may interest some on pkt
> > >(and infuriate others).
> > >Alan Isaac
> > >
> > >Richard Rorty, "For a more banal politics".
> > >
> > <snip>
> > >It is going to take a long period of readjustment for us Western
leftist
> > >intellectuals to comprehend that the word "socialism" has been drained
of
> > >force--as have been all the other words that drew their force from the
idea
> > >that an alternative to capitalism was available.  Not only are we going
to
> > >have to stop using the term "capitalist economy" as if we knew what a
> > >functioning non-capitalist economy looked like but we are going to have
to
> > >stop using the term "bourgeois cultures" as if we knew what a viable
> > >non-bourgeois culture in an industrialized society would look like.
> >
> > As generalists, Marx and Plato were wrong
> > but this does not mean Rorty is generally right.
> >
> > I agree with Rorty that the language of socialism
> > has become an impediment to human progress even if the
> > underlying sentiments have quietly changed for
> > the better.
> >
> > I believe a "shepherd" economy is preferable
> > to either a "laize-faire" or a "planned" economy.
> > A shepherd provides feedback to guide the flock
> > to greener pastures..
> >
> > <snip>
> > >What is so surprising and refreshing about Havel's tone, to my mind, is
that
> > >he seems prepared to go all the way in replacing theoretical insight
with
> > >groundless hope and trial and error. As he says in the interviews
collected
> > >as Disturbing the Peace, "hope is not prognostication." Throughout
those
> > >interviews, he emphasizes his lack of interest in underlying forces and
> > >historical trends.
> > <snip>
> >
> > Havel is right that "hope is not prognostication". However he is wrong
> > that hope can be groundless. Hope is grounded in the present
> > not the future. We need to be *certain* of where we are *now*
> > (rather than where we are  going) to have hope. This is "true" hope.
> > "False" hope flows from expectations about the future.
> > When we have true hope we are able to face the uncertain future
> > without contracts or liquidity.
> >
> > Calling for trial and error with no understanding of the spiritual
> > dymanics of hope is dumb. Such "experimentalists" are free to perform
> > social experiments on themsleves if they so desire, but I am
> > tired of participating in *their* social experiments -- socialist
> > capitalist or otherwise.
> >
> > Harry Veeder
>
>