Re: [Pen-l] smart grid question

[Gar Lipow <gar.lipow@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Eugene Coyle<eugenecoyle@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> On Jun 9, 2009, at 2:18 PM, Gar Lipow wrote in part:
>
>> <snip>
>>
>> As to he point of a technological solution. Of course the smart grid
>> is a technological solution. We are discussing technology. This is a
>> context switching game I'm sick of encountering. If you discuss the
>> technology, someone says "oh technofix  - why you focusing on
>> trivial". If  you discuss politics and economics  you get "Oh, we
>> don't  have the technology to do that".  Gene you are a smart guy.
>> Please don't waste time with the unfair debating tactic of pretending
>> to be unable to walk and chew gum at the same time.
>>
>> <snip>
>
> Gar, the above is quite remarkable.  I'm arguing my views, not debating with
> you.  I understand that you believe that technology can take care of the
> climate problems.  That's what you wrote in your book -- "no hair shirt" -
> which I take to mean we can go on consuming as before, just by switching to
> renewable energy produced with technology that just might work.  I think the
> "no hair shirt" view is ridiculous, but it has been a tenet of the big
> dollar enviro groups for years.


Except they want to let the market take care of it, and not implement
any political changes that threaten anyone powerful. And there is not
path to this type of change that does not threaten anyone powerful.
But you were making quite a leap here. The discussion was of a "smart
grid" and secondarily of long distance transmission. How do you make
the leap from "we need at least smart grid, and probably long distance
transmission to transition away from fossil fuels" to "Why does
technology appear as the solution to every problem?"

>        My assertion about technology is just that, an assertion of what I
> think -- it is not a debating trick.

If it is not the a debating trick that was one hell of a leap. Of
course techbology change is not sufficient. But, since both of us have
been following the debate since Amory Lovins won the political fight
but lost the intellectual one against Barry Commoner, will you at
least acknowledge that we have to change the technology as well as the
politics. Maybe you even might want to explain how we can have
transition of a low carbon world without a smart grid, and explain how
any radical technological change, if conducted simply as technology
can't be turned into an opportunity by some major capitalist sector.
There are technologies (such as coal) where the bad is guaranteed to
outweigh the good. And there are technologies that can go either way
depending on the social and political sources. But are you really
arguing that there are technologies that by themselves that can't be
used to make things worse, that are inherently non-destructive? Or do
you have a reason why the smart grid is like coal, not able to be
deployed positively, rather than like say solar water heaters and
insulating curtains which can make life better or worse depending on
how and in what context it is deployed?
>
> I'm a fan of technology and well aware of what is going on.  I've been
> watching American Superconductor for years, since they promised to replace
> copper lines in Detroit 7 or 8 years ago.  I haven't heard that is working
> yet.  They have got a pilot line on Long Island, half a mile long.  What
> they produce best is press releases.  I published articles on photovoltaics
> over 30 years ago and did a study on the industry for Gov Jerry Brown almost
> that long ago.  I've done a lot of consulting work on geothermal projects
> and published on that technology.  I am skeptical of technological fixes.
>  I've watched Amory Lovins lead a generation of environmentalists down the
> primrose path of technology fixes to the detriment of the environment and
> the environmental movement.
>
> So lighten up, Gar.  This isn't about debating tricks.
>
> Gene
>
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