Re: [Pen-l] smart grid question

[Gar Lipow <gar.lipow@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Doyle Saylor<doylesaylor@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> Greetings Economists,
> See bolded text below.  As one example of power storage in the super
> conducting cables.
> On Jun 9, 2009, at 2:18 PM, Gar Lipow wrote:
>
> And Doyle, no transmission does not store power.
>
> Doyle;
> From Scientific American archives on Solar power,


Doyle I was acknowledging your point that conventional transmissions
lines don't store power. Certainly your  magic pony superconducting
grid cooled by liguid hydrogen could. And the storage cost of that -
well with todays technology nothing like that will be built, except
maybe a demonstrations. To run such transmission today over a long
distance today - 50 cents per kWh? 10$ per kilowatt hour. Maybe I'm
being unkind and you run such a thing for 25 cents per kWh. That is
before any costs for actually generating the power.    Look, I'm not
saying its not worth R&D. But conventional HVDC TODAY can  move power
enough for our immediate needs, without multiplying power costs by a
factor of ten or one hundred.

Carrol Cox quote Eugene Coyle saying: " Why does technology appear as
the solution to every problem?"

Then replied

>Because nearly everyone, including the majority of Marxists, is in the
grip of the Myth of Progress - an extrapolation from technology to world
history. And since Progress is God, it is impossible to even imagine a
radical decrease in production - which is almost certainly what is
needed.


The initial discussion was whether a smart grid would facilitate
Enron-like pricing and soon turned into a discussion of "is a smart
grid all bad".  Apparently the discussion only became fetishism when
the answer to that question was "no".  Take  a radical decrease in
production as goal. I think that is fetishism too, but assume for the
sake of discussion that a production decrease is needed. Do you really
think HOW we reduce production does not matter?.  Do you really
believe that the right way to decrease production is to do the same
thing we do now, only decrease quantities? If not why are you so
friggin eager to derail any discussion of what the right thing to do
is? Produce more, or produce less, we still have to produce in ways
drastically different than at present. More of the same or even less
of the same won't do.

And if we don't want to give up electricity, but have to cut,  then it
is a lot more important to preserve reliability than quantity. We can
live with less electricity a lot more easily than with unreliable
electricity.  Let me explain a basic rule of thumb about electricity
and wind power. In a typical grid without storage or much long
distance transmission, it can provide 15% to 35% of electricity
without disrupting reliability.  OK, so cut electricity consumption in
half. What percent of the grid can wind provide now. With a few
exceptions, still that same 15% to 35%! It is a percentage, not a
fixed amount. So even if you "cut production" if you don't want that
reduced grid powered by blowing up mountain tops, you still need to
make changes to add reliability.  A smart grid is the least expensive
way to do that in money, and in resources too. But it only adds so
much to the percentage of wind you can use. Long distance transmission
is the second least expensive. But again it only can increase your
percentage of wind (and other variable renewable sources) so far.
Storage is the most expensive, and can probably get you to the point
where (combined with tiny amounts of hydro and geothermal) you can get
99% of your energy from wind, sun, hydro, geothermal, wave and so
forth. And then to keep reliability you get the last 1% from fossil
fuels or biofuels.  And cutting production radically doesn't change
the fact that if you want to be mostly fossil fuel and biofuel free
you need a smart grid and long distance transmission.  And this
mostly fossil fuel free is a goal whether you are increasing or
decreasing production.

As Marx and Madonna would say "We are living in a material world".
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