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[Pen-l] Questions about the film Capitalism Hits the Fan
Dear Friends,
Gene Coyle and Sandwichman raised similar questions about the film's
proposed alternative solution to the crisis. They worry about the
believability of suggesting the radical transformation of capitalist
corporations (from structures in which the mass of workers are excluded from
the decisions of what, where, and how to produce and especially excluded
from distributing the surplus their labor produces, while a tiny board of
directors responsible to a slightly less tiny set of major shareholders
makes all those decisions). They are, of course, right to worry. Yet, I do
think the case can be made and successfully disseminated.
The existing corporate structure is obviously undemocratic: a
weakness we can and should attack and which will resonate widely, especially
now. The existing corporate structure creates an incentive for the board of
directors to serve shareholders by evading, weakening and eliminating all
government interventions (taxes, regulations, etc.) that constrain
profitability. US capitalist corporations had that incentive once FDR
imposed such contraints in trying to cope with the Great Depression in the
1930s. In addition to those incentives, corporate boards of directors have
the resources to realize them. The boards gather into their hands the
surplus, the discretionary wealth of society, and can and do use it to,
among other things, undo unwanted state interventions. That has been US
history since the 1930s. The film thus stresses that any state intervention
in a capitalist crisis that leaves in tact the corporate structure thereby
undermines its effectiveness and durability; it signs its own death warrant.
If workers became their own board of directors - such that every job
description specified both the usual specific work assignment PLUS
participation in decisions about what, where, and how to produce and how to
distribute the surplus - our economic history would have been and would
henceforth be very different. If workers do their usual tasks Monday through
Thursday but on Friday gather to function as their own board of directors
(much as happens in many worker coops, in small hi tech firms across the US,
and elsewhere as well - it is not some utopian ideal but a practical reality
with a concrete and important history), here are some different outcomes we
might contemplate. First, in the 1970s such non-capitalistically organized
firms would NOT have stopped the historic rise of real wages in the US,
would thereby not have pushed workers to raise their consumption by
exhaustive labor hours and unsustainable debts (among the causes of the
current crisis). Second, such firms would fundamentally alter the ongoing
relationship between enterprise and community. Third, the attitude of such
firms to many "costs" of enterprise that capitalists have infamously not
counted (effects on workers' health, family life, artistic experience;
impacts on environment; etc.) would be to count them resulting in very
different calculi of what is "efficient", etc. In short, economic events
would vary significantly.
Not only does the film state or gesture toward these points, and not
only would I argue that they can be successfully offered to the US public,
but I would go further. The old social democratic mantras about state
interventions have lost much of their ability to inspire - given what has
been done in their name and given their failure to sustain let alone advance
the gains they sometimes temporarily won for working people. People now,
given the loss of most that was won in the 1930s, will need something new
and more to fight for. And the film's suggested radical transformation of
the workplace - where people daily live the greater part of their adult
lives - might well provide the revolutionary target and inspiration a newly
revived left needs.
The film tries to suggest why that might be the case in addition to
its Marxist-based analysis of the crisis's causes.
Rick Wolff
******************************
-----Original Message-----
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Subject: pen-l Digest, Vol 398, Issue 1
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Capitalism Hits the Fan documentary film (Rick Wolff)
2. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (ravi)
3. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (Jim Devine)
4. Late Bloomer; Spinning into Butter (Louis Proyect)
5. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (Doyle Saylor)
6. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (Doyle Saylor)
7. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (Bill Burgess)
8. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (raghu)
9. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (ravi)
10. Re: Re: Capitalism Hits the Fan documentary film (Jim Devine)
11. RE: Late Bloomer; Spinning into Butter (Max B. Sawicky)
12. Re: say, this is fun. (Jim Devine)
13. Re: Late Bloomer; Spinning into Butter (Louis Proyect)
14. Re: say, this is fun. (Dan Scanlan)
15. Re: Late Bloomer; Spinning into Butter (Carrol Cox)
16. Re: say, this is fun. (Jim Devine)
17. summary (Jim Devine)
18. party time (Dan Scanlan)
19. RE: Late Bloomer; Spinning into Butter (Max B. Sawicky)
20. Re: Late Bloomer; Spinning into Butter (Jim Devine)
21. Re: Late Bloomer; Spinning into Butter (Carrol Cox)
22. Re: Re: Capitalism Hits the Fan documentary film (Sandwichman)
23. Re: W. Europe = Hell (Robert Scott Gassler)
24. building a cult of personality?? (Jim Devine)
25. Re: Late Bloomer; Spinning into Butter (Doyle Saylor)
26. Zambia's Copperbelt Reels From Global Crisis (Louis Proyect)
27. Re: Re: Capitalism Hits the Fan documentary film (Eugene Coyle)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 15:27:40 -0400
From: "Rick Wolff" <rdwolff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Pen-l] Re: Capitalism Hits the Fan documentary film
To: <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <A76D5251FF15437AA399518A95F8D6D1@rickdesktop>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
With some deft repartee, the film was criticized on this list for
the alternative it offers. Something having to do with Hawaiian shirts. The
film actually critiques the now mainstream solutions of more or less
Keynesian vintage, the reregulation nostrums now also fast becoming
mainstream, etc. It makes the following simple two points: (1) that these
mainstream solutions (like those of their predecessors in the New Deal) all
leave in tact corporate structures with their decision-making boards of
directors responsible to the tiny numbers of major shareholders, and (2)
that such boards have the incentives to evade, weaken, or undo those
solutions when and where they constrain profits and also the resources
(corporate profits) to realize those incentives. Perhaps, the film aims to
suggest, the failure to control let alone prevent capitalism's instability
as expressed in crises large and small (and the immense social costs
thereof) has something to do with exempting that structure of enterprise
from question, let alone radical transformation. The film offers a brief
sketch of an alternative structure of enterprise and reasons why it would
not have made key decisions leading to this latest capitalist crash.
Granted, there is not much about Hawaiian
Shirts, but then again, the film has something to say.
Rick Wolff
-----Original Message-----
From: pen-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:pen-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
pen-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 3:00 PM
To: pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: pen-l Digest, Vol 397, Issue 1
Send pen-l mailing list submissions to
pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of pen-l digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: new bail-out proposal (raghu)
2. Re: News Alert: Dow Leaps 497 Points on Enthusiasm Over
Treasury Plan (Jim Devine)
3. W. Europe = Hell (Jim Devine)
4. flex-time kaput? (Jim Devine)
5. Law and Order: AEA (Max B. Sawicky)
6. Re: Law and Order: AEA (michael perelman)
7. Re: Law and Order: AEA (michael perelman)
8. Re: Law and Order: AEA (Bill Lear)
9. Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (ravi)
10. Re: Law and Order: AEA (Robert Scott Gassler)
11. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (Jim Devine)
12. Re: Law and Order: AEA (Jim Devine)
13. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (ravi)
14. neoclassical theory of work [was Law and Order: AEA (Jim Devine)
15. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (Jim Devine)
16. RE: Law and Order: AEA (Max B. Sawicky)
17. bancor? (Jim Devine)
18. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (ravi)
19. Re: Law and Order: AEA (michael perelman)
20. Re: Law and Order: AEA (Jim Devine)
21. Re: computer question regarding proxy servers (ravi)
22. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (Jim Devine)
23. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (ravi)
24. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (Bill Burgess)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 13:49:23 -0700
From: raghu <mraghu01@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] new bail-out proposal
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<ab96bd8a0903231349r74d6a176y5d1d02d7695fcc1e@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 8:26 AM, michael perelman
<michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Also, it allows Obama to avoid being labeled as a socialist. Other than
> that, it sounds stupid.
I disagree. On its own terms, the plan makes a lot of sense. We should
soon find out if the banks have a mere liquidity crisis (which this
plan should resolve) or a deeper insolvency crisis which should lead
to nationalization.
Treasury has clearly learned from the failure of Paulson's TARP:
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/mar2009/db20090322_44722
2.htm
"This approach is superior to the alternatives of either hoping for
banks to gradually work these assets off their books or of the
government purchasing the assets directly," Treasury said in a
briefing paper. "Simply hoping for banks to work legacy assets off
over time risks prolonging a financial crisis, as in the case of the
Japanese experience. But if the government acts alone in directly
purchasing legacy assets, taxpayers will take on all the risk of such
purchasesalong with the additional risk that taxpayers will overpay
if government employees are setting the price for those assets."
-raghu.
--
Plankton lobbyist: "NUKE THE WHALES!"
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 14:21:52 -0700
From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Pen-l] Re: News Alert: Dow Leaps 497 Points on Enthusiasm
Over Treasury Plan
To: Pen-l <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<93dbbd490903231421r45355b0ah637c2dce6624223e@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
If the Obama people were smart, they would ignore this surge rather
than seeing it as a needed endorsement for the Geithner plan. The
stock market people need someone (Obama, Geithner) to act like the
adult in the room, making the financiers take their medicine (going
against their short-term interest).
The Geithner plan does not involve acting like an adult. Instead, it's
just another version of the "give the finance guys what they want"
approach (deregulation, Paulson's various plans). As spoiled brats,
the stock market people are cheering the fact that they're going to be
spoiled some more. Of course, the mainstream media will see this stock
surge as wonderful, as a good sign of recovery, etc.
This plan is a new version of "regulatory forbearance" (not enforcing
regulations so that zombie financiers an continue to shamble onward)
that will raise the cost of the bail-out to taxpayers and likely the
rest of the world.
> Breaking News Alert
> The New York Times
> Monday, March 23, 2009 -- 4:05 PM ET
> -----
>
> Dow Leaps 497 Points on Enthusiasm Over Treasury Plan
>
> Wall Street reignited a two-week rally on Monday, fueled by
> the government's plan to help banks remove bad assets from
> their books. The government's program would tap money from
> the government's $700 billion financial rescue fund and also
> involve help from the Federal Reserve, the Federal Deposit
> Insurance Corporation and the participation of private
> investors. The Dow Jones industrial average closed up nearly
> 500 points, or 6.8 percent, and the broader Standard & Poor's
> 500-stock index rose more than 7 percent. The Nasdaq rose
> more than 98 points or 6.7 percent.
--
Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 14:59:50 -0700
From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Pen-l] W. Europe = Hell
To: Pen-l <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<93dbbd490903231459v51fb1e65nf0abd9254f219f2e@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
from the Washington POST, known for its objective (cough cough) approach:
Thank God America Isn't Like Europe -- Yet
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Who's Blogging
; Links to this article
By Charles Murray
Sunday, March 22, 2009; Page B02
Do we want the United States to be like Europe?
The European model has worked in many ways. I am delighted whenever I
get a chance to go to Stockholm or Amsterdam, not to mention Rome or
Paris. There's a lot to like -- a lot to love -- about day-to-day life
in Europe. But I argue that the answer to this question is "no." Not
for economic reasons. I want to focus on another problem with the
European model: namely, that it drains too much of the life from life.
The stuff of life -- the elemental events surrounding birth, death,
raising children, fulfilling one's personal potential, dealing with
adversity, intimate relationships -- occurs within just four
institutions: family, community, vocation and faith. Seen in this
light, the goal of social policy is to ensure that those institutions
are robust and vital. The European model doesn't do that. It enfeebles
every single one of them.
Drive through rural Sweden, as I did a few years ago. In every town
was a beautiful Lutheran church, freshly painted, on meticulously
tended grounds, all subsidized by the Swedish government. And the
churches are empty. Including on Sundays. The nations of Scandinavia
and Western Europe pride themselves on their "child-friendly"
policies, providing generous child allowances, free day-care centers
and long maternity leaves. Those same countries have fertility rates
far below replacement and plunging marriage rates. They are countries
where jobs are most carefully protected by government regulation and
mandated benefits are most lavish. And with only a few exceptions,
they are countries where work is most often seen as a necessary evil,
and where the proportions of people who say they love their jobs are
the lowest.
Call it the Europe Syndrome. Last April I had occasion to speak in
Zurich, where I made some of these same points. Afterward, a few of
the 20-something members of the audience came up and said plainly that
the phrase "a life well-lived" did not have meaning for them. They
were having a great time with their current sex partner and new BMW
and the vacation home in Majorca, and they saw no voids in their lives
that needed filling.
more dreck at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/20/AR2009032001
779.html
--
Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:17:56 -0700
From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Pen-l] flex-time kaput?
To: Pen-l <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<93dbbd490903231517h4c535908o743acc56c75fbd9f@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
from SLATE:
>The [Washington POST] fronts a look at how "flex time," which seemed to be
all the rage just a little while ago, is slowly disappearing. When the
economy was good, employees were eager to snap up options to telecommute or
work different hours to balance their work and family obligations. The
anecdotal piece says workers are now giving up these types of perks out of
fear that they could give employers a good excuse to lay them off, and many
are scared to even bring up the topic during such hard economic times. One
expert says there's a "silent fright" among workers that is reminiscent of
how women used to feel like they had to hide their family from employers.
"That's what it feels like we're returning to. Work as many hours as you
possibly can. Make yourself indispensable. Don't ever complain. Don't ever
ask for anything," she said.<
--
Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:26:30 -0400
From: "Max B. Sawicky" <sawicky@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
To: "'Progressive Economics'" <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <000001c9ac84$24bbae70$6e330b50$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/23/not-as-authentic-as-i
t-seems/#more-4445
Schleifer, Weitzman, Rafael Robb . . .
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 07:09:32 -0700
From: michael perelman <michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <49C8E99C.8030100@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
More Stephen Cheung, from my Manufacturing Discontent
Greg Clark proposed that "factory discipline [was] successful because it
coerced more effort from workers than they would freely give .... The
empirical evidence shows that discipline succeeded mainly by increasing
work effort. Workers effectively hired capitalists to make them work
harder" (Clark 1994, p. 128).
Greg Clark was referring to the sort of theory earlier proposed by
Clark Nardinelli, who, presumably in all seriousness, declared that
children in the factories would voluntarily choose to have their
employers beat them. In his words: "Now if a firm in a competitive
industry employed corporal punishment the supply price of child labor to
that firm would increase. The child would receive compensations for the
disamenity of being beaten" (Nardinelli 1982, p. 289). Does any parent
seriously believe that children would make such a calculation?
Similarly, Steven Cheung maintains that riverboat pullers who towed
wooden boats along shore line in Pre-communist China agreed to hire
monitors to whip them to restrict shirking (Cheung 1983, p. 5).
Even if these children defied all of our understanding of child
psychology and chose to have themselves beaten to earn more money for
their parents, would such treatment represent an expression of slavery?
For example, some people in impoverished nations, such as China and
Japan and Russia, were so destitute that they sold themselves into
slavery (see Patterson 1982, p. 130). Voluntary slavery is said to
exist today in some of the poorest parts of the world. Would any
rational person see slavery as an indicator of freedom or just as an
absence of choice?
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA
95929
530 898 5321
fax 530 898 5901
http://michaelperelman.wordpress.com
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 07:11:43 -0700
From: michael perelman <michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <49C8EA1F.5060708@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
I am working on a new book about 17th & early 18th C. economists. There
are several cases of murder and and assortment of other crimes usually
associated with the profession.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA
95929
530 898 5321
fax 530 898 5901
http://michaelperelman.wordpress.com
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 08:23:51 -0600
From: Bill Lear <rael@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <18888.60663.322891.971754@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Tuesday, March 24, 2009 at 07:09:32 (-0700) michael perelman writes:
>...
> Even if these children defied all of our understanding of child
>psychology and chose to have themselves beaten to earn more money for
>their parents, would such treatment represent an expression of slavery?
> For example, some people in impoverished nations, such as China and
>Japan and Russia, were so destitute that they sold themselves into
>slavery (see Patterson 1982, p. 130). Voluntary slavery is said to
>exist today in some of the poorest parts of the world. Would any
>rational person see slavery as an indicator of freedom or just as an
>absence of choice?
My thoughts/questions parallel yours with regard to our "volunteer"
military, the labeling of it as such is really ignoring the obscene.
Bill
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:02:47 -0400
From: ravi <ravi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <8AD8177C-A0AD-42F0-B546-E9D91E2116F8@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
====================
Canada's annual war on seals has begun. This year, sealers will
shoot or bludgeon 338,200 of these gentle animals, all for the
sake of "fashion." Most of these seals are just babies, and many
are skinned alive on the ice while still conscious.
http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/seal_hunt_09?rk=zp2EmU4aORwbW
====================
--ravi
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:03:44 +0100
From: "Robert Scott Gassler" <rsgassle@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
To: "Progressive Economics" <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <6E5ADF0453E8411AA6F91565F67C16B9@winc82e3c78ec5>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I had Steve Cheung for a class in the early 1970s. I heard him describe the
selling of children in China. His comment: "that's okay; they were just
maximizing their wealth." He seemed serious.
I bit my tongue rather than ask, "is that a positive or a normative
statement?"
----- Original Message -----
From: "michael perelman" <michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Progressive Economics" <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
> More Stephen Cheung, from my Manufacturing Discontent
>
> Greg Clark proposed that "factory discipline [was] successful because it
> coerced more effort from workers than they would freely give .... The
> empirical evidence shows that discipline succeeded mainly by increasing
> work effort. Workers effectively hired capitalists to make them work
> harder" (Clark 1994, p. 128).
>
> Greg Clark was referring to the sort of theory earlier proposed by
> Clark Nardinelli, who, presumably in all seriousness, declared that
> children in the factories would voluntarily choose to have their
> employers beat them. In his words: "Now if a firm in a competitive
> industry employed corporal punishment the supply price of child labor to
> that firm would increase. The child would receive compensations for the
> disamenity of being beaten" (Nardinelli 1982, p. 289). Does any parent
> seriously believe that children would make such a calculation?
> Similarly, Steven Cheung maintains that riverboat pullers who towed
> wooden boats along shore line in Pre-communist China agreed to hire
> monitors to whip them to restrict shirking (Cheung 1983, p. 5).
>
> Even if these children defied all of our understanding of child
> psychology and chose to have themselves beaten to earn more money for
> their parents, would such treatment represent an expression of slavery?
> For example, some people in impoverished nations, such as China and
> Japan and Russia, were so destitute that they sold themselves into
> slavery (see Patterson 1982, p. 130). Voluntary slavery is said to
> exist today in some of the poorest parts of the world. Would any
> rational person see slavery as an indicator of freedom or just as an
> absence of choice?
>
> --
> Michael Perelman
> Economics Department
> California State University
> Chico, CA
> 95929
>
> 530 898 5321
> fax 530 898 5901
> http://michaelperelman.wordpress.com
> _______________________________________________
> pen-l mailing list
> pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
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------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:05:28 -0700
From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<93dbbd490903240905p1911c736hfaf0f55925b7399e@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Is an effort made to ensure that the seal population is conserved over
the years?
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 8:02 AM, ravi <ravi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> ====================
>
> Canada's annual war on seals has begun. This year, sealers will
> shoot or bludgeon 338,200 of these gentle animals, all for the
> sake of "fashion." Most of these seals are just babies, and many
> are skinned alive on the ice while still conscious.
>
> http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/seal_hunt_09?rk=zp2EmU4aORwbW
>
> ====================
>
> --ravi
>
> _______________________________________________
> pen-l mailing list
> pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
>
--
Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:09:06 -0700
From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<93dbbd490903240909p718ba264oe9601d1be8b4d5dd@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Max B. Sawicky wrote:
> http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/23/not-as-authentic-as-i
> t-seems/#more-4445
>
>
> Schleifer, Weitzman, Rafael Robb . . .
I know about Schleifer (Brad deLong's known criminal associate), but
who are Weitzman and Robb?
--
Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:18:45 -0400
From: ravi <ravi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <786C4AEF-5C9B-4605-A036-24F4C88DC5F3@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
On Mar 24, 2009, at 12:05 PM, Jim Devine wrote:
> Is an effort made to ensure that the seal population is conserved over
> the years?
>
I don't know about that. In my case, it is an effort to stop brutal
unnecessary murder of other living things.
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 8:02 AM, ravi <ravi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> ====================
>>
>> Canada's annual war on seals has begun. This year, sealers will
>> shoot or bludgeon 338,200 of these gentle animals, all for the
>> sake of "fashion." Most of these seals are just babies, and many
>> are skinned alive on the ice while still conscious.
>>
>> http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/seal_hunt_09?rk=zp2EmU4aORwbW
>>
>> ====================
>>
>> --ravi
>>
--ravi
--
Support something better than yourself ;-)
PeTA => http://peta.org/
Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/
If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:20:08 -0700
From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Pen-l] neoclassical theory of work [was Law and Order: AEA
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<93dbbd490903240920x23320f0cw3ca6ee6af8247b59@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
michael perelman edu> wrote:
> Greg Clark proposed that "factory discipline [was] successful because it
coerced more effort from workers than they would freely give .... The
empirical evidence shows that discipline succeeded mainly by increasing work
effort. Workers effectively hired capitalists to make them work harder"
(Clark 1994, p. 128).<
this is the standard neoclassical theory of management: as a group,
workers have a collective good (a small-scale public good) in having
everyone work hard (avoiding "shirking"), likely because of the
interdependence of individual efforts. They thus hire a boss to
provide that good. Presumably, they "pay" for this boss by accepting
wages less than they could make if they didn't pay for the management.
This assumes that somehow workers get together to hire a boss. This
ignores the way that the collectivity of workers is often fragmented
and individualized by competition in labor-power markets and the way
in which bosses make efforts to preserve and increase this
fragmentation ("divide and conquer"). It totally misses the "free
rider" problem that neoclassicals usually invoke when dealing with
collective goods problems.
> Greg Clark was referring to the sort of theory earlier proposed by Clark
Nardinelli, who, presumably in all seriousness, declared that children in
the factories would voluntarily choose to have their employers beat them.
In his words: "Now if a firm in a competitive industry employed corporal
punishment the supply price of child labor to that firm would increase. The
child would receive compensations for the disamenity of being beaten"
Nardinelli 1982, p. 289). Does any parent seriously believe that children
would make such a calculation? Similarly, Steven Cheung maintains that
riverboat pullers who towed wooden boats along shore line in Pre-communist
China agreed to hire monitors to whip them to restrict shirking (Cheung
1983, p. 5). <
Nardinelli throws in Adam Smith's theory of compensating wage
differentials. That theory does not work because of the existence of
unemployment, frictions, efficiency wages, etc. Back when I did an
empirical survey of evidence for the compensating wage differential
theory, the literature said that the only time it worked was when
labor unions were present (the United Mine Workers won compensation
for dangerous/deadly jobs, etc.) I've done a smaller survey since and
asked labor economists about this. It's confirmed my earlier survey.
--
Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:25:10 -0700
From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<93dbbd490903240925x2b122b0dw372d74eb12b9efa2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
me:
>> Is an effort made to ensure that the seal population is conserved over
>> the years?
ravi:
> I don't know about that. In my case, it is an effort to stop brutal
> unnecessary murder of other living things.
what happens if seals over-breed, the way deer have done in many
places after their natural predators were killed off? I remember that
a lot of deer died from starvation and sickness because they
over-bred.
NB: I'm not in favor of killing seals for rich people's furs. I'm not
in favor of people wearing furs. But since humans are running this
planet, we have the responsibility to try to solve the disasters we've
created (like over-breeding).
We shouldn't be overly concerned with the issue of cuteness. A lot of
endangered species aren't cute the way baby seals are.
--
Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:29:19 -0400
From: "Max B. Sawicky" <sawicky@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
To: "'Progressive Economics'" <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <002501c9ac9d$ae88be90$0b9a3bb0$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Marvin. Might have spelled it wrong. Famous Harvard prof and manure
thief.
Rafael Robb, game theorist, murdered his wife.
-----Original Message-----
From: pen-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:pen-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Devine
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 12:09 PM
To: Progressive Economics
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
Max B. Sawicky wrote:
>
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/23/not-as-authentic-as-i
> t-seems/#more-4445
>
>
> Schleifer, Weitzman, Rafael Robb . . .
I know about Schleifer (Brad deLong's known criminal associate), but
who are Weitzman and Robb?
--
Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
_______________________________________________
pen-l mailing list
pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:38:36 -0700
From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Pen-l] bancor?
To: Pen-l <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<93dbbd490903240938x6d2b0541oe4797e1a1c14e4d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
China Wants A New Global Currency
by The Associated Press
NPR.org, March 24, 2009 7 China is calling for a new global currency
controlled by the International Monetary Fund, stepping up pressure
ahead of a London summit of global leaders for changes to a financial
system dominated by the U.S. dollar and Western governments.
The comments, in an essay by the Chinese central bank governor
released late Monday, reflect Beijing's growing assertiveness in
economic affairs. China is expected to press for developing countries
to have a bigger say in finance when leaders of the Group of 20 major
economies meet April 2 in London to discuss the global crisis.
Gov. Zhou Xiaochuan's essay did not mention the dollar by name but
said the crisis showed the dangers of relying on one nation's currency
for international payments. In an unusual step, the essay was
published in both Chinese and English, making clear it was meant for
an international audience.
"The crisis called again for creative reform of the existing
international monetary system towards an international reserve
currency," Zhou wrote.
A reserve currency is the unit in which a government holds its
reserves. But Zhou said the proposed new currency also should be used
for trade, investment, pricing commodities and corporate bookkeeping.
Beijing has long been uneasy about relying on the dollar for the bulk
of its trade and to store foreign reserves. Premier Wen Jiabao
publicly appealed to Washington this month to avoid any steps in
response to the crisis that might erode the value of the dollar and
Beijing's estimated $1 trillion holdings in Treasuries and other U.S.
government debt.
The currency should be based on shares in the IMF held by its 185
member nations, known as special drawing rights, or SDRs, the essay
said. The Washington-based IMF advises governments on economic policy
and lends money to help with balance-of-payments problems.
Some economists have suggested creating a new reserve currency to
reduce reliance on the dollar but acknowledge it would face major
obstacles. It would require acceptance from nations that have long
used the dollar and hold huge stockpiles of the U.S. currency.
--
Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:02:08 -0400
From: ravi <ravi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <19B6C770-66FB-440E-89DF-5E5E4C1D3C28@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
On Mar 24, 2009, at 12:25 PM, Jim Devine wrote:
> what happens if seals over-breed, the way deer have done in many
> places after their natural predators were killed off? I remember that
> a lot of deer died from starvation and sickness because they
> over-bred.
>
> NB: I'm not in favor of killing seals for rich people's furs. I'm not
> in favor of people wearing furs. But since humans are running this
> planet, we have the responsibility to try to solve the disasters we've
> created (like over-breeding).
>
The answer is to bring those predators back (which is entirely
feasible in many cases)... but really, clubbing other animals to death
under the banner of preventing starvation and sickness is not really a
better option, is it?
> We shouldn't be overly concerned with the issue of cuteness. A lot of
> endangered species aren't cute the way baby seals are.
The use of "cuteness" is tactical. Or do you think I encourage list
members to oppose this annual brutality because I am worried about the
loss of cuteness? ;-)
--ravi
--
Support something better than yourself ;-)
PeTA => http://peta.org/
Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/
If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/
------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 10:26:44 -0700
From: michael perelman <michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <49C917D4.8030305@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
In defense of Weitzman, he only stole poop. The rest of our profession
creates bad manure.
Max B. Sawicky wrote:
> Marvin. Might have spelled it wrong. Famous Harvard prof and manure
> thief.
>
> Rafael Robb, game theorist, murdered his wife.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pen-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:pen-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Devine
> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 12:09 PM
> To: Progressive Economics
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
>
> Max B. Sawicky wrote:
> http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/23/not-as-authentic-as-i
>> t-seems/#more-4445
>>
>>
>> Schleifer, Weitzman, Rafael Robb . . .
>
> I know about Schleifer (Brad deLong's known criminal associate), but
> who are Weitzman and Robb?
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA
95929
530 898 5321
fax 530 898 5901
http://michaelperelman.wordpress.com
------------------------------
Message: 20
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 10:54:42 -0700
From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<93dbbd490903241054i60845ef1t968e68ef51f39a08@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
michael perelman wrote:
> In defense of Weitzman, he only stole poop. The rest of our profession
> creates bad manure.
why would anyone steal poop? did it help him attain equilibrium?
--
Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
------------------------------
Message: 21
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:55:00 -0400
From: ravi <ravi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] computer question regarding proxy servers
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <B5270448-DC23-49CB-B027-7B003F317E70@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
On Mar 21, 2009, at 4:34 PM, michael perelman wrote:
> Why does something change the settings on my system to show a proxy
> server?
That's too vague! What's showing a proxy server? Your web browser?
What browser do you use? Does this happen when you are at work and home?
--ravi
--
Support something better than yourself ;-)
PeTA => http://peta.org/
Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/
If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/
------------------------------
Message: 22
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:19:42 -0700
From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<93dbbd490903241119q65ab5c8au23ccfef5a35b4fa4@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
ravi wrote:
> The answer is to bring those predators back (which is entirely feasible in
> many cases)... but really, clubbing other animals to death under the
banner
> of preventing starvation and sickness is not really a better option, is
it?
No, clubbing critters is a bad thing. It demeans the clubbers while
inflicting unnecessary pain on the clubbees.
In the case of deer, I think that there's nothing wrong with using
hunters as substitute for predators. However, I think hunters should
be required to eat all the venison they produce (or to sell it to
someone who will eat it). Whenever animals are slaughtered (including
mole rats and other non-cute critters), a serious effort should be
made to find a use for the results.
My problem with PETA is that they tend to value animals over people.
Or maybe their PR is so bad that they only _look_ like they value
animals over people. (They may be closet humanists.) For example,
they're not just against testing on animals to develop make-up (which
seems reasonable tom me). They're also against testing
human-life-saving drugs on animals.
me:
>> We shouldn't be overly concerned with the issue of cuteness. A lot of
>> endangered species aren't cute the way baby seals are.
ravi:
> The use of "cuteness" is tactical. Or do you think I encourage list
members
> to oppose this annual brutality because I am worried about the loss of
> cuteness? ;-)
I try not to attribute motives to anyone on the list, since I can't
read minds (especially in e-mails). But PETA and Bridget Bardot (if
she's still around) are pretty overt with their thinking and seem more
concerned with cuteness than they should be.
The use of cuteness in a tactic prevents a lot of communication with
the non-PETA folks. Is there some effort to present the PETA world
view to everyday people? _why_ should we give up on testing pro-human
drugs on animals?
--
Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
------------------------------
Message: 23
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:40:14 -0400
From: ravi <ravi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <D3713363-D763-4E8E-AA69-CA828169613D@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
On Mar 24, 2009, at 2:19 PM, Jim Devine wrote:
>
> My problem with PETA is that they tend to value animals over people.
> Or maybe their PR is so bad that they only _look_ like they value
> animals over people. (They may be closet humanists.) For example,
> they're not just against testing on animals to develop make-up (which
> seems reasonable tom me). They're also against testing
> human-life-saving drugs on animals.
>
> But PETA and Bridget Bardot (if
> she's still around) are pretty overt with their thinking and seem more
> concerned with cuteness than they should be.
>
I don't know... I don't find hen (referred to as "chicken" in American
English?) particularly cute. A lot of PETA actions protest their
torture. Now they may use chicks to symbolise the hens, because indeed
chicken are cute, but again that's tactical.
> The use of cuteness in a tactic prevents a lot of communication with
> the non-PETA folks. Is there some effort to present the PETA world
> view to everyday people?
PETA believes that their efforts are indeed a presentation to everyday
people. And judging from the response from my niece and her friends,
it seems to work quite well. For the cerebral stuff, there is Peter
Singer.
> _why_ should we give up on testing pro-human
> drugs on animals?
Here's PETA's take on it: http://www.peta.org/about/faq-viv.asp
(they are spot on, IMHO, in the first paragraph, w.r.t the gains in
general health)
Here's Singer's take on it:
"Whether or not the occasional experiment on animals is defensible, I
remain opposed to the institutional practice of using animals in
research, because, despite some improvements over the past thirty
years, that practice still fails to give equal consideration to the
interests of animals. For that reason I oppose putting more resources
into building new facilities for animal experimentation. Instead,
these funds should go into clinical research involving consenting
patients, and into developing other methods of research that do not
involve the harmful use of animals."
--ravi
--
Support something better than yourself ;-)
PeTA => http://peta.org/
Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/
If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/
------------------------------
Message: 24
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:53:03 -0700
From: Bill Burgess <billburgess@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090324114148.040f34b8@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Please be a little more critical and reflective about a campaign that
targets fishers and indigenous people who hunt for a living in the
traditionally-poorest province in the country. I used to work in a
cattle/pork slaughterhouse so I know what tender mercies went into
your meat from the supermarket, notably the veal.
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
pen-l mailing list
pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
End of pen-l Digest, Vol 397, Issue 1
*************************************
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 15:32:54 -0400
From: ravi <ravi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <9746C50F-A6CF-4557-B024-BE3621D8F0FF@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
On Mar 24, 2009, at 2:53 PM, Bill Burgess wrote:
> Please be a little more critical and reflective about a campaign
> that targets fishers and indigenous people who hunt for a living in
> the traditionally-poorest province in the country.
I respectfully disagree. The campaign does not target fishers and
indigenous people (for related information, see: http://bit.ly/ohLqk,
http://www.caft.org.uk/factsheets/reasons-for-trapping.html)
. The whole idea of such animal welfare campaigns is to raise the
level of critical thought (or even get the majority to start thinking)
about the facts of the 6 billion plus animals that humans torture and
murder on a yearly basis.
> I used to work in a cattle/pork slaughterhouse so I know what tender
> mercies went into your meat from the supermarket, notably the veal.
Bill, I don't eat meat. And I oppose factory farming of animals.
--ravi
--
Support something better than yourself ;-)
PeTA => http://peta.org/
Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/
If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:11:11 -0700
From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<93dbbd490903241311w737ab8edu9cb6537b6b101254@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
ravi wrote:
> I don't know... I don't find hen (referred to as "chicken" in American
English?) particularly cute. A lot of PETA actions protest their torture.
Now they may use chicks to symbolise the hens, because indeed chicken are
cute, but again that's tactical.<
The plural for the animals is "hens" or "chickens." The meat is called
"chicken."
I think that PETA is missing the boat here. The problem with raising
chickens is that nowadays they follow the industrial model, which
involves not only crowding the birds together in cramped and fetid
conditions and shooting them up with hormones but also is not good for
the consumers (us carnivores).
...
Singer:
> "Whether or not the occasional experiment on animals is defensible, I
remain opposed to the institutional practice of using animals in research,
because, despite some improvements over the past thirty years, that practice
still fails to give equal consideration to the interests of animals. For
that reason I oppose putting more resources into building new facilities
for animal experimentation. Instead, these funds should go into clinical
research involving consenting patients, and into developing other methods of
research that do not involve the harmful use of animals."<
I haven't noticed the beasts giving equal consideration to _our_
interests. Also, what about experiments that involve plants, who also
do not consent to being experimented on?
--
Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:16:43 -0400
From: Louis Proyect <lnp3@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Pen-l] Late Bloomer; Spinning into Butter
To: PEN-L list <PEN-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <49C93FAB.60801@xxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Although they are far apart stylistically, both Late Bloomer and
Spinning into Butter deal with social pariahs. The first movie, now
available from Netflix, is a low-budget Japanese shocker about a
severely disabled man, played by just such a person, who becomes a
serial killer. When the publicist wrote me about the DVD screener
becoming available, I said Great, send it along. It has to be better
than the latest idiotic Batman movie. The other movie is far more
conventional and deals with racial incidents at Belmont, a snooty
private college in Vermont. It opens at the Landmark Sunshine Theater in
New York on March 27th, as well as Washington and Los Angeles. While
there are major flaws in Spinning into Butter, I can recommend it as a
serious attempt to deal with liberal racism at a school with an
administration almost as boneheaded as my employer, Columbia University.
full:
http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2009/03/24/late-bloomer-spinning-into-butt
er/
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:34:41 -0700
From: Doyle Saylor <doylesaylor@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <6D86535C-26A6-458B-AC37-A646F2B5A169@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Greetings Economists,
On Mar 24, 2009, at 11:53 AM, Bill Burgess wrote:
> Please be a little more critical and reflective about a campaign
> that targets fishers and indigenous people who hunt for a living in
> the traditionally-poorest province in the country. I used to work in
> a cattle/pork slaughterhouse so I know what tender mercies went into
> your meat from the supermarket, notably the veal.
Doyle;
Wearing furs for clothing seems a bit of a stretch for human
consumption anymore. People are not tied to selling furs for making a
living. Traditional living is not tied to commercial fur trade. I
think it questionable to put economic interests of the fur industry in
alignment with indigenous rights. That makes poor people the fig leaf
for using fur as clothing. Providing jobs and a living is the key to
poverty, not the specific occupation of the fur trade.
Uneven development is capitalist patterns of economic activity. Poor
provinces deprived of some heinous activity they make money off of is
not a difficult choice to make. Replace one set of work with another
that merits universal interests.
thanks,
Doyle Saylor
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:41:51 -0700
From: Doyle Saylor <doylesaylor@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <58B250F4-BE59-4CB8-81CD-167E835CC670@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Greetings Economists,
On Mar 24, 2009, at 1:11 PM, Jim Devine wrote:
> I haven't noticed the beasts giving equal consideration to _our_
> interests. Also, what about experiments that involve plants, who also
> do not consent to being experimented on?
Doyle;
Questions about genetic modification of plants are valid questions
about the common good of human beings. The same ecological arguments
one can put up for animals apply to plants and their uses. For
example kill all the wolves and deer have no checks on their
population. Kill all wolves and grass eaters will shift the pattern
of the plant landscape. So if you go into cattle country what sort of
plant community do you see? Does growing rice in California for the
Asian market make sense?
thanks,
Doyle Saylor
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:42:08 -0700
From: Bill Burgess <billburgess@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090324133241.040fd500@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Who do think is being targeted, if not the sealers?
This is your PETA link:
hundreds of thousands of baby seals are shot or have their skulls
crushed, all for the sake of "fashion." Sealers routinely hook seals
in the eye, cheek, or mouth to avoid damaging the pelt, then drag the
seals across the ice, in many cases without checking to ensure that
they are unconscious.
Baby seals stand no chance against club-wielding trappers, and they
must look on as fellow pups are bludgeoned to death before meeting
the same bloody fate. The anguish that a mother seal feels as she
watches her baby being beaten to death just a few feet away from her
is horrifying and can be heard in her desperate cries and seen in her
attempts to get to her baby.
Bill
At 12:32 PM 24/03/2009, you wrote:
>On Mar 24, 2009, at 2:53 PM, Bill Burgess wrote:
>>Please be a little more critical and reflective about a campaign
>>that targets fishers and indigenous people who hunt for a living in
>>the traditionally-poorest province in the country.
>
>
>I respectfully disagree. The campaign does not target fishers and
>indigenous people (for related information, see:
>http://bit.ly/ohLqk,
>http://www.caft.org.uk/factsheets/reasons-for-trapping.html) . The
>whole idea of such animal welfare campaigns is to raise the
>level of critical thought (or even get the majority to start thinking)
>about the facts of the 6 billion plus animals that humans torture and
>murder on a yearly basis.
>
>
>>I used to work in a cattle/pork slaughterhouse so I know what tender
>>mercies went into your meat from the supermarket, notably the veal.
>
>
>
>Bill, I don't eat meat. And I oppose factory farming of animals.
>
> --ravi
>
>--
>Support something better than yourself ;-)
>PeTA => http://peta.org/
>Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/
>If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/
>
>_______________________________________________
>pen-l mailing list
>pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:44:14 -0700
From: raghu <mraghu01@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<ab96bd8a0903241344k63c9e34ajc9a907817d890bf3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 11:53 AM, Bill Burgess <billburgess@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> Please be a little more critical and reflective about a campaign that
> targets fishers and indigenous people who hunt for a living in the
> traditionally-poorest province in the country.
I don't get this. Clubbing baby seals is ok if it is done by poor
indigenous people?? WTF?
> I used to work in a
> cattle/pork slaughterhouse so I know what tender mercies went into your
meat
> from the supermarket, notably the veal.
If you eat veal you have blood on your hands.
-raghu.
--
Seeing is deceiving. It's eating that's believing.
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:03:10 -0400
From: ravi <ravi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <C3FAC4CE-DEDA-48C8-B8D5-D7488E49CA47@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
On Mar 24, 2009, at 4:42 PM, Bill Burgess wrote:
> Who do think is being targeted, if not the sealers?
The error in your reasoning is the assumption that an action on the
part of one person has to necessarily involve another person as a
target. "Targeting" is an intentional act. The target of the PETA
action is to prevent animal suffering. Unless you believe that PETA
workers and volunteers sat around and plotted on how they could stick
it to the indigenous people and fishermen.
--ravi
--
Support something better than yourself ;-)
PeTA => http://peta.org/
Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/
If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:52:35 -0700
From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Re: Capitalism Hits the Fan documentary film
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<93dbbd490903241452y350cf0bdg478c2fb0ff4ea1ed@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
sounds like a good film. Where did the stuff about Hawaiian shirts come
from?
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Rick Wolff <rdwolff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
>
> With some deft repartee, the film was criticized on this list for
> the alternative it offers. Something having to do with Hawaiian shirts.
The
> film actually critiques the now mainstream solutions of more or less
> Keynesian vintage, the reregulation nostrums now also fast becoming
> mainstream, etc. It makes the following simple two points: (1) that these
> mainstream solutions (like those of their predecessors in the New Deal)
all
> leave in tact corporate structures with their decision-making boards of
> directors responsible to the tiny numbers of major shareholders, and (2)
> that such boards have the incentives to evade, weaken, or undo those
> solutions when and where they constrain profits and also the resources
> (corporate profits) to realize those incentives. Perhaps, the film aims to
> suggest, the failure to control let alone prevent capitalism's instability
> as expressed in crises large and small (and the immense social costs
> thereof) has something to do with exempting that structure of enterprise
> from question, let alone radical transformation. The film offers a brief
> sketch of an alternative structure of enterprise and reasons why it would
> not have made key decisions leading to this latest capitalist crash.
> Granted, there is not much about Hawaiian
> Shirts, but then again, the film has something to say.
--------------
Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 18:21:37 -0400
From: "Max B. Sawicky" <sawicky@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [Pen-l] Late Bloomer; Spinning into Butter
To: "'Progressive Economics'" <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <005601c9acce$e636eed0$b2a4cc70$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Actually the last Batman movie was pretty good.
-----Original Message-----
From: pen-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:pen-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Louis Proyect
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 4:17 PM
To: PEN-L list
Subject: [Pen-l] Late Bloomer; Spinning into Butter
Although they are far apart stylistically, both "Late Bloomer" and
"Spinning into Butter" deal with social pariahs. The first movie, now
available from Netflix, is a low-budget Japanese shocker about a
severely disabled man, played by just such a person, who becomes a
serial killer. When the publicist wrote me about the DVD screener
becoming available, I said "Great, send it along. It has to be better
than the latest idiotic Batman movie". The other movie is far more
conventional and deals with racial incidents at Belmont, a snooty
private college in Vermont. It opens at the Landmark Sunshine Theater
in
New York on March 27th, as well as Washington and Los Angeles. While
there are major flaws in "Spinning into Butter", I can recommend it as
a
serious attempt to deal with liberal racism at a school with an
administration almost as boneheaded as my employer, Columbia
University.
full:
http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2009/03/24/late-bloomer-spinning-int
o-butter/
_______________________________________________
pen-l mailing list
pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 15:23:07 -0700
From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] say, this is fun.
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<93dbbd490903241523s24f85651p8e51ccde739ac8dc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Dan Scanlan:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaH-lGafwtE&feature=channel_page
so Freemasonry is the problem? The Illuminati and the gnomes of Zurich
must be pisses at not getting attention in this video. and the Elders
of Zion?
--
Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 18:29:52 -0400
From: Louis Proyect <lnp3@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Late Bloomer; Spinning into Butter
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <49C95EE0.4090608@xxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Max B. Sawicky wrote:
> Actually the last Batman movie was pretty good.
>
Sort of like our current president.
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 15:41:41 -0700
From: Dan Scanlan <coolhanduke1029@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] say, this is fun.
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <C50A3BF7-7EF3-4D07-B5E5-583FF6F48993@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
On Mar 24, 2009, at 3:23 PM, Jim Devine wrote:
> Dan Scanlan:
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaH-lGafwtE&feature=channel_page
>
> so Freemasonry is the problem? The Illuminati and the gnomes of Zurich
> must be pisses at not getting attention in this video. and the Elders
> of Zion?
Jim,
What video did you watch?
I thought JFK nailed it pretty good, sorta like Eisenhower and the
military industrial complex. He got killed for it, of course. We may
find out in 2010 when the files are released (unless Poppy Bush is
still alive, then we'll have to wait.)
If NO conspiracies exist, what's the point of teams?
Dan
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:42:45 -0500
From: Carrol Cox <cbcox@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Late Bloomer; Spinning into Butter
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <49C961E5.98F9EE6D@xxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
What good does a good movie do?
My answer, provisionally, is no particvular good at all. And this
applies to novels, poems, paintings, musical compositions or
performances, what have you. Whatever good they may do (and I'm leaving
"good" a blank) has to be expressed in the actions of the 'consumer' of
the product.
Carrol
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:09:08 -0700
From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] say, this is fun.
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<93dbbd490903241609h4658f1b6na43f366f8f94426e@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
me:
>> so Freemasonry is the problem? The Illuminati and the gnomes of Zurich
>> must be pisses at not getting attention in this video. and the Elders
>> of Zion?
Dan:
> What video did you watch?
One with a speech by John F. Kennedy interspersed with a lot of
flashes to George W. Bush, his father, and other members of the
enemies list that's shared by many left-liberals and wacko-Rightists.
The list included not just Skull & Bones but the Council of Foreign
Relations and had a _big_ emphasis on the Freemasons.
> I thought JFK nailed it pretty good, sorta like Eisenhower and the
military
> industrial complex.
Professional politicians often make good speeches. That's their job.
> He got killed for it, of course. ...
Hmm... the JFK conspiracy. That makes me nostalgic. I was at Dealey
plaza in 1963, so I know what _actually_ happened. This weird skinny
guy asked me if I could spare a few bullets and it just happened to be
that I did. I didn't see him again until he showed up on TV being shot
by Jack Ruby. I do remember what he said, there on the grassy knoll,
as if he said it yesterday: "The Vice-President is paying me to kill
JFK because he wants to kill a large number of American boys in a
futile and generally pointless war. That damned papist patrician
son-of-a-smuggler just won't play ball!"
> If NO conspiracies exist, what's the point of teams?
_Of course_ conspiracies exist, as I've said many times before.[*]
There are lots & lots of them, some successful, some not. Often, two
or three (or even more) of them work at cross-purposes so that they
often don't attain what they desire.
A focus on conspiracies distracts people from the structure of power
that allows some groups to be more successful in their conspiracies
than others. That is, Ford Motor was much more successful at
conspiring to make the Pinto automobile unsafe to drive than was Louis
Auguste Blanqui in his conspiratorial efforts to overthrow the French
state during the 19th century. The latter had a lot of money and
power, while the latter was fighting uphill against the powers that
were.
And just because someone has a lot of power and money does not mean
that their conspiracies are successful. JFK's father was much more
successful in conspiring to smuggle booze in from Canada and then
laundering money to become publicly respectable than was his son at
secretly plotting to overthrow and later kill Castro.
--
Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
[*] A "conspiracy" is a group effort to attain some goal through
manipulation, murder, etc. where secrecy is an absolutely necessary
component of the plot (just as businesses must keep their trade
secrets).
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:19:29 -0700
From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Pen-l] summary
To: Pen-l <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<93dbbd490903241619k6018fac7v517dbca8da20bd07@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
from SLATE:
>Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner formally unveiled the White House plan
to clean out toxic assets from banks' balance sheets on Monday, and
investors gave it the equivalent of a standing ovation. Contrary to what
happened in early February when Geithner first outlined the plan in such
general terms that everyone was disappointed, stocks surged around the world
yesterday. The Dow Jones industrial average jumped 6.8 percent, its biggest
gain since October, suggesting that "investors bet that the government may
have finally found a way to fix the nagging problem at the core of the
financial crisis," notes the Los Angeles Times. The Wall Street Journal says
"the reaction seemed more a sigh of relief at seeing some details of the
program, after weeks of waiting, than an overwhelming endorsement,"
particularly since "much fine print is still to be spelled out." The New
York Times takes the broadest look at the three-part plan that could end up
purchasing "up to $2 trillion in !
real estate assets" and points out that it was "bigger and more generous to
private investors than expected." The Washington Post hears word that
administration officials "made changes to the plan in recent days in a way
that makes it more favorable to private investors." ...
> Under the complex plan outlined by Geithner yesterday, the government
would join forces with the private sector to purchase individual home loans
as well as mortgage-backed securities. The Treasury will use up to $100
billion from the financial rescue funds already approved by Congress to
match contributions made by private investors. The public-private ventures
would get further help from the government through loans from the Federal
Reserve and loan guarantees from the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. These
programs could buy as much as $1 trillion in public assets. In addition, the
government could put $1 trillion more into the toxic assets by using the
Term Asset-Backed Securities Loan Facility, known as TALF, which will be
expanded to finance existing troubled securities.
> Investors were largely enthusiastic, or at least some were. Almost all the
papers quote Bill Gross, the co-chief investment officer of Pimco, the
nation's largest bond investor, calling the program "perhaps the first
win-win-win policy to be put on the table." Investors do have plenty to be
optimistic about since "the Treasury was offering to lend up to $6 for every
$1 of investors' own money," as the NYT explains, which means taxpayers
would lose the most if the investments turn sour. The WP, which is the most
openly skeptical about the plan, says some analysts think the government may
be handing out too much of the potential upside to investors when it should
be going to the taxpayers. The program also involves a major risk
considering that if the Treasury uses all of the $100 billion from the $700
billion bailout plan, there will only be $12 billion remaining, which means
Geithner will have fewer options if another financial institution
desperately needs cash to survive.
> The WP and LAT highlight that the program simply might not work,
considering that it's unclear how the government would persuade banks to
sell assets if they see the prices as too low. USAT points out that in
"prior situations in both the USA and abroad, governments have forced banks
to sell their bad assets." The paper also says that the typical buyers of
securities, such as hedge funds, don't have much cash lying around so it's
likely that the biggest buyers would be so-called vulture investors, who
would only be interested in the securities if they're real cheap, something
banks may not be interested in since it'd mean they'd have to record big
losses in their books.
> The WSJ says there's currently "a chess match of sorts" that is playing
out between banks and investors. Banking executives are reluctant to sell
assets at a deep discount since that could force them to raise more capital.
Experts say banks that have already taken write-downs on their assets could
be more willing to accept a cheap price for their assets. The LAT quotes the
lobbyist of a financial trade group who says that even if many banks refuse
to participate, the program should at the very least determine a market
price for toxic assets. A shortage of information on how much these assets
might be worth is part of the reason why the credit markets have seized up
over the last few months....
> The WP fronts word that the White House is "considering asking Congress"
to allow the treasury secretary to seize a whole slew of financial
companies, including hedge funds and insurers, if their collapse would
threaten the economy as a whole. Currently, the government only has the
authority to seize banks. This would "mark a significant shift from the
existing model of financial regulation" because someone in the president's
Cabinet would have authority over companies that are currently overseen by a
number of independent agencies. Geithner is set to talk about the issue
today at hearing on Capitol Hill that will focus on the American
International Group bonuses. Some think that if the government had been able
to seize AIG when it was clear that the insurance giant was in trouble, the
whole process of winding down its operations could have been cheaper for
taxpayers. If the treasury secretary had this power, it could take a number
of steps to prevent a firm's collapse, in!
cluding, significantly, breaking contracts...
>The bad economy is sending people to the candy shop, reports the NYT.
So-called "nostalgic candies" like Necco Wafers and Mallo Cups are
particularly popular, and customers seem to prefer "cheaper, old-fashioned"
sweets, which is a significant reversal from last year when mass-market
candies were losing ground to luxury brands. Many candy makers are reporting
surprisingly healthy profits and stores say they're struggling to keep up
with demand. The owner of a candy store in San Francisco said it best: "All
is well in candy land." <
--
Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:40:29 -0700
From: Dan Scanlan <coolhanduke1029@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Pen-l] party time
To: undisclosed-recipients:;
Message-ID: <00D19BC0-F024-43EC-BC7D-6CEA8DC883D0@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
If you're interested in who's raising money from whom in the corrupt
world of Washington politics, this is the site for you:
http://politicalpartytime.org/
------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 19:51:56 -0400
From: "Max B. Sawicky" <sawicky@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [Pen-l] Late Bloomer; Spinning into Butter
To: "'Progressive Economics'" <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <005801c9acdb$83d17f50$8b747df0$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
My answer is, any of the following:
It takes me somewhere interesting.
It makes me laugh.
It helps me learn something non-trivial I didn't know before.
It inspires me.
-----Original Message-----
From: pen-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:pen-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Carrol Cox
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 6:43 PM
To: Progressive Economics
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Late Bloomer; Spinning into Butter
What good does a good movie do?
My answer, provisionally, is no particvular good at all. And this
applies to novels, poems, paintings, musical compositions or
performances, what have you. Whatever good they may do (and I'm
leaving
"good" a blank) has to be expressed in the actions of the 'consumer'
of
the product.
Carrol
_______________________________________________
pen-l mailing list
pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
------------------------------
Message: 20
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:51:16 -0700
From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Late Bloomer; Spinning into Butter
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<93dbbd490903241751y44fc0194qe77b85d9d68b0864@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Max wrote:
> My answer is, any of the following:
>
> It takes me somewhere interesting.
> It makes me laugh.
> It helps me learn something non-trivial I didn't know before.
> It inspires me.
laughter is quite important to emotional, mental, and even physical
survival.
--
Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
------------------------------
Message: 21
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 20:12:25 -0500
From: Carrol Cox <cbcox@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Late Bloomer; Spinning into Butter
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <49C984F9.B0F98622@xxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
These response are not incompatible with my query and provisional
respnse. They describe what the movie (book, etc) does for the
viewer/reader privately. That is fine, & in fact Any response in these
terms is acceptable. Can one respond to the question in terms of the
social order?
I've picked up non-triial knowledge (or at least information) from works
I would regard as worthles, so that part of Max's response is perhaps
tautological.
Carrol
Jim Devine wrote:
>
> Max wrote:
> > My answer is, any of the following:
> >
> > It takes me somewhere interesting.
> > It makes me laugh.
> > It helps me learn something non-trivial I didn't know before.
> > It inspires me.
>
> laughter is quite important to emotional, mental, and even physical
survival.
> --
> Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
> way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
> _______________________________________________
> pen-l mailing list
> pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
------------------------------
Message: 22
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 20:25:59 -0800
From: Sandwichman <lumpoflabor@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Re: Capitalism Hits the Fan documentary film
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Rick Wolff <rdwolff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<c17a73fe0903242125v5578c209s6ef5e3d70fb3acfd@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Rick,
I confess I may have incited that deft repartee about your film with my
question, "what's the 'alternative solution'?" Granting that there's nothing
about Hawaiian shirts in the film, "radical transformation" still strikes me
as rather vague. And "alternative structures of enterprise" doesn't address
the macro issues, as I understand them.
Is there a concrete policy proposal that you could put forward that could
serve as a transitional measure toward achieving your alternative solution?
If so, is it a proposal that even conceivably could win broad enough popular
support in the USA to put it on the political agenda? Or are we talking
about "if wishes were horses..."
Sandwichman
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Rick Wolff
<rdwolff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>
> With some deft repartee, the film was criticized on this list for
> the alternative it offers. Something having to do with Hawaiian shirts.
The
> film actually critiques the now mainstream solutions of more or less
> Keynesian vintage, the reregulation nostrums now also fast becoming
> mainstream, etc. It makes the following simple two points: (1) that these
> mainstream solutions (like those of their predecessors in the New Deal)
all
> leave in tact corporate structures with their decision-making boards of
> directors responsible to the tiny numbers of major shareholders, and (2)
> that such boards have the incentives to evade, weaken, or undo those
> solutions when and where they constrain profits and also the resources
> (corporate profits) to realize those incentives. Perhaps, the film aims to
> suggest, the failure to control let alone prevent capitalism's instability
> as expressed in crises large and small (and the immense social costs
> thereof) has something to do with exempting that structure of enterprise
> from question, let alone radical transformation. The film offers a brief
> sketch of an alternative structure of enterprise and reasons why it would
> not have made key decisions leading to this latest capitalist crash.
> Granted, there is not much about Hawaiian
> Shirts, but then again, the film has something to say.
>
> Rick Wolff
>
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Message: 23
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 10:43:19 +0100
From: "Robert Scott Gassler" <rsgassle@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] W. Europe = Hell
To: "Progressive Economics" <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <1F00D3D2D95B4969A8881133B6630B9A@winc82e3c78ec5>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
This is nonsense. I know; I live in Europe.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Devine" <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "Pen-l" <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 10:59 PM
Subject: [Pen-l] W. Europe = Hell
from the Washington POST, known for its objective (cough cough) approach:
Thank God America Isn't Like Europe -- Yet
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Who's Blogging
; Links to this article
By Charles Murray
Sunday, March 22, 2009; Page B02
Do we want the United States to be like Europe?
The European model has worked in many ways. I am delighted whenever I
get a chance to go to Stockholm or Amsterdam, not to mention Rome or
Paris. There's a lot to like -- a lot to love -- about day-to-day life
in Europe. But I argue that the answer to this question is "no." Not
for economic reasons. I want to focus on another problem with the
European model: namely, that it drains too much of the life from life.
The stuff of life -- the elemental events surrounding birth, death,
raising children, fulfilling one's personal potential, dealing with
adversity, intimate relationships -- occurs within just four
institutions: family, community, vocation and faith. Seen in this
light, the goal of social policy is to ensure that those institutions
are robust and vital. The European model doesn't do that. It enfeebles
every single one of them.
Drive through rural Sweden, as I did a few years ago. In every town
was a beautiful Lutheran church, freshly painted, on meticulously
tended grounds, all subsidized by the Swedish government. And the
churches are empty. Including on Sundays. The nations of Scandinavia
and Western Europe pride themselves on their "child-friendly"
policies, providing generous child allowances, free day-care centers
and long maternity leaves. Those same countries have fertility rates
far below replacement and plunging marriage rates. They are countries
where jobs are most carefully protected by government regulation and
mandated benefits are most lavish. And with only a few exceptions,
they are countries where work is most often seen as a necessary evil,
and where the proportions of people who say they love their jobs are
the lowest.
Call it the Europe Syndrome. Last April I had occasion to speak in
Zurich, where I made some of these same points. Afterward, a few of
the 20-something members of the audience came up and said plainly that
the phrase "a life well-lived" did not have meaning for them. They
were having a great time with their current sex partner and new BMW
and the vacation home in Majorca, and they saw no voids in their lives
that needed filling.
more dreck at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/20/AR2009032001
779.html
--
Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
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------------------------------
Message: 24
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 07:29:20 -0700
From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Pen-l] building a cult of personality??
To: Pen-l <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID:
<93dbbd490903250729n56afa1e3uf844986c5b09b0a2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
http://www.publicradio.org/columns/marketplace/scratchpad/2009/03/recession_
rock.html
--
Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
------------------------------
Message: 25
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 07:36:21 -0700
From: Doyle Saylor <doylesaylor@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Late Bloomer; Spinning into Butter
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <F7BCEF35-1731-422E-A3F7-7C99B2DFD2C3@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed;
delsp=yes
Greetings Economists,
On Mar 24, 2009, at 6:12 PM, Carrol Cox wrote:
> These response are not incompatible with my query and provisional
> respnse. They describe what the movie (book, etc) does for the
> viewer/reader privately. That is fine, & in fact Any response in these
> terms is acceptable. Can one respond to the question in terms of the
> social order?
Doyle;
Ignoring the focus on 'movies', the question in an economic sense
currently is whether or not content is 'interactive'. Interactivity
spawns 'networking content' in media. Quoting from the NY Times;
March 23, 2009
Denis Dyack of Silicon Knights on how cloud computing will impact games
By DENIS DYACK, VentureBeat
..."Anyone who creates videos games understands that its key
differentiator from other entertainment media is its interactivity.
Video games are non-linear entertainment in the sense that traditional
narratives, as in film, novels and television, are always experienced
in predetermined sequence, and repeat experiences are the same in
structure. While with video games one cannot predict the order of
events because of interactivity.? Therefore,? traditional mediums are,
by contrast, linear entertainment.
Technology is commoditizing the value of traditional linear
entertainment towards zero. Soon, all of these traditional media forms
books, movies, TV, even music will have little or no value as
commodities.? This is a fundamental economic shift, and we should be
ready for a decline of these traditional industries to a fraction of
their former selves. These declines will be more severe than that of
the auto industries, because today we still cannot download cars (we
are not living in sci-fi author Neal Stephensons Diamond Age, where
even diamonds can be reproduced as commodities, yet)."...
Doyle;
Asking what a book/novel does, or movie has to be asked in terms of
what Denis Dyack maintains above. Otherwise the 'value' of a single
book in the 'printing mode' of culture miss leads us about 'value'
social meaning, private meaning et al. In other words the value of
Wikipedia over a commercial encyclopedia is...?
Or as Dyack refers above to the 'single' commodity object of a culture
production process. An object fits in a re-use value interactivity
network of internet connectivity so to speak. Something measurable in
some sense about what a cultural object does outside of private
pleasures. Perhaps always present but not for technical reasons
important in creating value in a commodity during the 'printing'
copying era of media production and consumption.
thanks,
Doyle Saylor
------------------------------
Message: 26
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:19:48 -0400
From: Louis Proyect <lnp3@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Pen-l] Zambia's Copperbelt Reels From Global Crisis
To: PEN-L list <PEN-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <49CA67B4.9010303@xxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/24/AR2009032403
204.html
Zambia's Copperbelt Reels From Global Crisis
Downturn in Commodities Trade Leads to Devastating Mine Closures
By Karin Brulliard
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, March 25, 2009; A01
LUANSHYA, Zambia -- The global economic meltdown swept into this company
town and took down the copper mine in January. It left in its wake a
crisis measured in unsold tomatoes at the market, empty stomachs and
desperate people lined up outside Chishimba Kambwili's pink house each
morning.
"This town is fully dependent on the mine," Kambwili, the town's
parliamentary representative, said before handing $9 of his own money to
one visitor who said that laid-off miners no longer buy her sugary
fritters, that the landlord was about to kick her out and that she had
six mouths to feed. "The majority of people are now wallowing in abject
poverty."
Mines here in Zambia's Copperbelt region drive this poor nation's
economy, but a plunge in global trade has slashed demand for the copper
used to construct electronics and houses in the United States and Asia.
That is prompting mines here to slow and shut, limiting tens of
thousands of Zambians' access to schooling, health care and regular meals.
Africa's resource-fueled economies have grown steadily in recent years,
improving the lives of millions of people. Now, as prices drop for
Botswana's diamonds, Chad's oil and Tanzania's cotton, a crisis that
began in the rich world is threatening to drive millions more into
poverty, according to the World Bank, and raising the specter of unrest.
For laid-off mine electrician Lucas Ngoma, feeding a family of eight has
come to mean bartering a DVD player for a sack of dried fish.
"We used to eat three meals a day. Now we do one," said Ngoma, 45. "We
will be rationing. One fish can be shared."
Of the 26 countries the International Monetary Fund has flagged as
"highly vulnerable" to the shocks of the global crisis, half are in
Africa. The fund has scaled back its 2009 growth forecast for the
continent from 6.7 percent to 3.25 percent.
The problem is not just a collapse in commodities prices. Foreign
investment is receding in countries such as South Africa and Kenya.
Remittances are dropping in Liberia. Aid flows from economically
stressed donor countries might retreat. Much will depend on how quickly
advanced economies recover, according to experts and African leaders,
who warn that a prolonged downturn could stir turmoil.
"We must ensure that Africa is not left out," Dominique Strauss-Kahn,
the IMF's managing director, told African finance ministers at a
conference this month. "This is not only about protecting economic
growth and household incomes -- it is also about containing the risk of
civil unrest, perhaps even of war. It is about people and their futures."
Among the hardest-hit African nations is copper-rich Zambia, which
derives about two-thirds of its export earnings from the metal. The
industry boomed as the price of copper soared to more than $8,000 a ton
last summer, helping drive Zambia's 5.8 percent growth rate for 2008. By
December, when the price had fallen more than 60 percent, the mines,
which had spent billions in recent years on exploration and new
technologies, began operating at losses. In recent days, the price has
been about $3,900 per ton.
The nation's currency, the kwacha, has tumbled more than 70 percent
against the dollar since last summer. Zambia's government predicts 5
percent growth this year, a rate economists say would be miraculous.
Most forecast growth of 2.5 to 3.5 percent.
Scrambling to deal with the crunch, Zambia is seeking a $200 million
emergency loan from the IMF. It has extended a carrot to mining houses
by scrapping a major tax on their profits. To curb dependence on copper,
the finance minister has proposed boosting funds for agriculture,
tourism and infrastructure -- key, experts say, to developing industries
in a landlocked nation with few paved roads and a dismal power system.
But the timing might be all wrong, some say.
"You cannot diversify under a crisis of this nature," said Oliver Saasa,
a consultant and former economics professor at the University of Zambia
in Lusaka, the capital. "In Zambia, we will depend on what happens
elsewhere."
According to unions, mines have shed nearly 10,000 permanent workers and
thousands of contractors and suppliers, and more layoffs are in the
pipeline. Those numbers are significant in a nation with a formal
workforce estimated at 400,000, 10 percent of which is employed in mining.
Government officials have said they are pressuring limping mines to
surrender their assets to the state and can quickly find new owners, a
claim industry executives and economists doubt given the global credit
crunch. Officials said one firm interested in the Luanshya mine is NFC
Africa, a Chinese company that runs one Zambian mine. That is a wildly
unpopular option among many miners and officials, who complain that the
firm pays poorly and provides unsafe working conditions.
"But in terms of us as the government bailing out the mines," Maxwell
Mwale, minister of mines and minerals development, said in an interview,
"we have no capacity."
In this northern province, copper is the lifeblood. Nearly all mines
provide schools and hospitals for miners and their families, and
salaries of at least $200 a month provide something resembling a living.
The mines were privatized in the late 1990s, and their expansion since
then has had a ripple effect. Guesthouses sprang up to lodge visiting
executives from Canada and India. Grocery stores and bars serving miners
mushroomed. Though little wealth trickled down, state data indicate that
steady economic growth has coincided with reduced poverty in urban areas.
Now, copper is driving things the other way. The Mining Mirror newspaper
is in danger of folding because of plummeting ad revenue. Copperbelt
soccer teams have lost sponsorships from the mining houses, and the
massive Konkola Copper Mines has stopped paying the salary for the coach
of the national team. Traffic on the roads has slowed, and goods are
expiring on store shelves.
Lizzy Sifaya, the owner of a cleaning company with contracts at many of
the mines, said she has had to lay off nearly 80 percent of her 350
employees as mines cut costs. One large mine, she said, told her to
forget cleaning the offices and "focus on the toilets."
Over the past year, malnutrition among children younger than 5 has
jumped 15 to 20 percent in urban areas, including Copperbelt towns, said
Pablo Recalde, country director for the World Food Program.
Luanshya Copper Mines, one of Zambia's smallest, shut down in January,
and 1,720 miners were let go. The maximum severance pay was 10 months'
salary, money that in many cases was immediately devoured by bank loans,
said Stanslas Mwimbe, a Luanshya representative for the Mineworkers
Union of Zambia. Though few in town worked there, Kambwili, the
parliamentary representative, estimated that the mine supported 90
percent of Luanshya's 180,000 residents.
The mine still allows miners' families to use its school and clinic free
of charge. But in interviews, several residents who did not work there
-- but whose businesses thrived on miners' consumption -- said they were
unable to pay for health care or public school fees.
Kambwili said he thinks the frustration will soon explode if the mine
does not reopen.
"There's always a limit for people to be patient," said Kambwili, who
last month led 1,000 Luanshya residents in a protest against the mine
closure. "They will have to fight for what belongs to them."
------------------------------
Message: 27
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 10:45:04 -0700
From: Eugene Coyle <eugenecoyle@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Re: Capitalism Hits the Fan documentary film
To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: rdwolff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Message-ID: <EA363840-ED15-49C0-90AB-8276B4A8E568@xxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Rick Wolff,
My flip mention of your mention of Hawaiian shirts in the last
section of your film triggered the exchange about the film on Pen-l.
I was responding to a question about your alternative solution to neo-
liberalism and Keynsianism. I also recommended the film and have
bought, so far, two copies -- including one for my grandsons who I
hope spread it around their schools in Kentucky. It is quite good. I
hope it gets wide use in classes.
The film is good, very good, but the introduction to your solution
of
having workers run companies and/or sit on the boards began with the
jarring mention of Hawaiian shirts. That put me on edge and less able
to suspend disbelief. Such a suspension is required to think of your
idea as a serious alternative to the crisis of capitalism.
Perhaps the little exchange on Pen-l has provoked more interest in
your film I hope so. By the way, I also have your recent CD done
with Harriett Fraad, "Today's Twin Crises, Economic & Psychological"
which I like as well.
Gene Coyle
On Mar 24, 2009, at 12:27 PM, Rick Wolff wrote:
>
> With some deft repartee, the film was criticized on this list for
> the alternative it offers. Something having to do with Hawaiian
> shirts. The
> film actually critiques the now mainstream solutions of more or less
> Keynesian vintage, the reregulation nostrums now also fast becoming
> mainstream, etc. It makes the following simple two points: (1) that
> these
> mainstream solutions (like those of their predecessors in the New
> Deal) all
> leave in tact corporate structures with their decision-making boards
> of
> directors responsible to the tiny numbers of major shareholders, and
> (2)
> that such boards have the incentives to evade, weaken, or undo those
> solutions when and where they constrain profits and also the resources
> (corporate profits) to realize those incentives. Perhaps, the film
> aims to
> suggest, the failure to control let alone prevent capitalism's
> instability
> as expressed in crises large and small (and the immense social costs
> thereof) has something to do with exempting that structure of
> enterprise
> from question, let alone radical transformation. The film offers a
> brief
> sketch of an alternative structure of enterprise and reasons why it
> would
> not have made key decisions leading to this latest capitalist crash.
> Granted, there is not much about Hawaiian
> Shirts, but then again, the film has something to say.
>
> Rick Wolff
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pen-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:pen-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> pen-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 3:00 PM
> To: pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: pen-l Digest, Vol 397, Issue 1
>
> Send pen-l mailing list submissions to
> pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of pen-l digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: new bail-out proposal (raghu)
> 2. Re: News Alert: Dow Leaps 497 Points on Enthusiasm Over
> Treasury Plan (Jim Devine)
> 3. W. Europe = Hell (Jim Devine)
> 4. flex-time kaput? (Jim Devine)
> 5. Law and Order: AEA (Max B. Sawicky)
> 6. Re: Law and Order: AEA (michael perelman)
> 7. Re: Law and Order: AEA (michael perelman)
> 8. Re: Law and Order: AEA (Bill Lear)
> 9. Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (ravi)
> 10. Re: Law and Order: AEA (Robert Scott Gassler)
> 11. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (Jim Devine)
> 12. Re: Law and Order: AEA (Jim Devine)
> 13. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (ravi)
> 14. neoclassical theory of work [was Law and Order: AEA (Jim Devine)
> 15. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (Jim Devine)
> 16. RE: Law and Order: AEA (Max B. Sawicky)
> 17. bancor? (Jim Devine)
> 18. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (ravi)
> 19. Re: Law and Order: AEA (michael perelman)
> 20. Re: Law and Order: AEA (Jim Devine)
> 21. Re: computer question regarding proxy servers (ravi)
> 22. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (Jim Devine)
> 23. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (ravi)
> 24. Re: Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada (Bill Burgess)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 13:49:23 -0700
> From: raghu <mraghu01@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] new bail-out proposal
> To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID:
> <ab96bd8a0903231349r74d6a176y5d1d02d7695fcc1e@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 8:26 AM, michael perelman
> <michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> Also, it allows Obama to avoid being labeled as a socialist. Other
>> than
>> that, it sounds stupid.
>
>
>
> I disagree. On its own terms, the plan makes a lot of sense. We should
> soon find out if the banks have a mere liquidity crisis (which this
> plan should resolve) or a deeper insolvency crisis which should lead
> to nationalization.
>
> Treasury has clearly learned from the failure of Paulson's TARP:
>
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/mar2009/db20090322_44722
> 2.htm
>
> "This approach is superior to the alternatives of either hoping for
> banks to gradually work these assets off their books or of the
> government purchasing the assets directly," Treasury said in a
> briefing paper. "Simply hoping for banks to work legacy assets off
> over time risks prolonging a financial crisis, as in the case of the
> Japanese experience. But if the government acts alone in directly
> purchasing legacy assets, taxpayers will take on all the risk of such
> purchasesalong with the additional risk that taxpayers will overpay
> if government employees are setting the price for those assets."
>
>
>
> -raghu.
>
> --
> Plankton lobbyist: "NUKE THE WHALES!"
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 14:21:52 -0700
> From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [Pen-l] Re: News Alert: Dow Leaps 497 Points on Enthusiasm
> Over Treasury Plan
> To: Pen-l <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID:
> <93dbbd490903231421r45355b0ah637c2dce6624223e@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> If the Obama people were smart, they would ignore this surge rather
> than seeing it as a needed endorsement for the Geithner plan. The
> stock market people need someone (Obama, Geithner) to act like the
> adult in the room, making the financiers take their medicine (going
> against their short-term interest).
>
> The Geithner plan does not involve acting like an adult. Instead, it's
> just another version of the "give the finance guys what they want"
> approach (deregulation, Paulson's various plans). As spoiled brats,
> the stock market people are cheering the fact that they're going to be
> spoiled some more. Of course, the mainstream media will see this stock
> surge as wonderful, as a good sign of recovery, etc.
>
> This plan is a new version of "regulatory forbearance" (not enforcing
> regulations so that zombie financiers an continue to shamble onward)
> that will raise the cost of the bail-out to taxpayers and likely the
> rest of the world.
>
>> Breaking News Alert
>> The New York Times
>> Monday, March 23, 2009 -- 4:05 PM ET
>> -----
>>
>> Dow Leaps 497 Points on Enthusiasm Over Treasury Plan
>>
>> Wall Street reignited a two-week rally on Monday, fueled by
>> the government's plan to help banks remove bad assets from
>> their books. The government's program would tap money from
>> the government's $700 billion financial rescue fund and also
>> involve help from the Federal Reserve, the Federal Deposit
>> Insurance Corporation and the participation of private
>> investors. The Dow Jones industrial average closed up nearly
>> 500 points, or 6.8 percent, and the broader Standard & Poor's
>> 500-stock index rose more than 7 percent. The Nasdaq rose
>> more than 98 points or 6.7 percent.
> --
> Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
> way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 14:59:50 -0700
> From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [Pen-l] W. Europe = Hell
> To: Pen-l <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID:
> <93dbbd490903231459v51fb1e65nf0abd9254f219f2e@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> from the Washington POST, known for its objective (cough cough)
> approach:
>
> Thank God America Isn't Like Europe -- Yet
>
> TOOLBOX
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> COMMENT
> washingtonpost.com readers have posted 364 comments about this item.
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> Who's Blogging
> ; Links to this article
> By Charles Murray
> Sunday, March 22, 2009; Page B02
>
> Do we want the United States to be like Europe?
>
> The European model has worked in many ways. I am delighted whenever I
> get a chance to go to Stockholm or Amsterdam, not to mention Rome or
> Paris. There's a lot to like -- a lot to love -- about day-to-day life
> in Europe. But I argue that the answer to this question is "no." Not
> for economic reasons. I want to focus on another problem with the
> European model: namely, that it drains too much of the life from life.
>
> The stuff of life -- the elemental events surrounding birth, death,
> raising children, fulfilling one's personal potential, dealing with
> adversity, intimate relationships -- occurs within just four
> institutions: family, community, vocation and faith. Seen in this
> light, the goal of social policy is to ensure that those institutions
> are robust and vital. The European model doesn't do that. It enfeebles
> every single one of them.
>
> Drive through rural Sweden, as I did a few years ago. In every town
> was a beautiful Lutheran church, freshly painted, on meticulously
> tended grounds, all subsidized by the Swedish government. And the
> churches are empty. Including on Sundays. The nations of Scandinavia
> and Western Europe pride themselves on their "child-friendly"
> policies, providing generous child allowances, free day-care centers
> and long maternity leaves. Those same countries have fertility rates
> far below replacement and plunging marriage rates. They are countries
> where jobs are most carefully protected by government regulation and
> mandated benefits are most lavish. And with only a few exceptions,
> they are countries where work is most often seen as a necessary evil,
> and where the proportions of people who say they love their jobs are
> the lowest.
>
> Call it the Europe Syndrome. Last April I had occasion to speak in
> Zurich, where I made some of these same points. Afterward, a few of
> the 20-something members of the audience came up and said plainly that
> the phrase "a life well-lived" did not have meaning for them. They
> were having a great time with their current sex partner and new BMW
> and the vacation home in Majorca, and they saw no voids in their lives
> that needed filling.
>
> more dreck at
>
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/20/AR2009032001
> 779.html
> --
> Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
> way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:17:56 -0700
> From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [Pen-l] flex-time kaput?
> To: Pen-l <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID:
> <93dbbd490903231517h4c535908o743acc56c75fbd9f@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> from SLATE:
>> The [Washington POST] fronts a look at how "flex time," which
>> seemed to be
> all the rage just a little while ago, is slowly disappearing. When the
> economy was good, employees were eager to snap up options to
> telecommute or
> work different hours to balance their work and family obligations. The
> anecdotal piece says workers are now giving up these types of perks
> out of
> fear that they could give employers a good excuse to lay them off,
> and many
> are scared to even bring up the topic during such hard economic
> times. One
> expert says there's a "silent fright" among workers that is
> reminiscent of
> how women used to feel like they had to hide their family from
> employers.
> "That's what it feels like we're returning to. Work as many hours as
> you
> possibly can. Make yourself indispensable. Don't ever complain.
> Don't ever
> ask for anything," she said.<
>
> --
> Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
> way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:26:30 -0400
> From: "Max B. Sawicky" <sawicky@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
> To: "'Progressive Economics'" <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID: <000001c9ac84$24bbae70$6e330b50$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/23/not-as-authentic-as-i
> t-seems/#more-4445
>
>
> Schleifer, Weitzman, Rafael Robb . . .
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 07:09:32 -0700
> From: michael perelman <michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
> To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID: <49C8E99C.8030100@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> More Stephen Cheung, from my Manufacturing Discontent
>
> Greg Clark proposed that "factory discipline [was] successful
> because it
> coerced more effort from workers than they would freely give .... The
> empirical evidence shows that discipline succeeded mainly by
> increasing
> work effort. Workers effectively hired capitalists to make them work
> harder" (Clark 1994, p. 128).
>
> Greg Clark was referring to the sort of theory earlier proposed by
> Clark Nardinelli, who, presumably in all seriousness, declared that
> children in the factories would voluntarily choose to have their
> employers beat them. In his words: "Now if a firm in a competitive
> industry employed corporal punishment the supply price of child
> labor to
> that firm would increase. The child would receive compensations for
> the
> disamenity of being beaten" (Nardinelli 1982, p. 289). Does any
> parent
> seriously believe that children would make such a calculation?
> Similarly, Steven Cheung maintains that riverboat pullers who towed
> wooden boats along shore line in Pre-communist China agreed to hire
> monitors to whip them to restrict shirking (Cheung 1983, p. 5).
>
> Even if these children defied all of our understanding of child
> psychology and chose to have themselves beaten to earn more money for
> their parents, would such treatment represent an expression of
> slavery?
> For example, some people in impoverished nations, such as China and
> Japan and Russia, were so destitute that they sold themselves into
> slavery (see Patterson 1982, p. 130). Voluntary slavery is said to
> exist today in some of the poorest parts of the world. Would any
> rational person see slavery as an indicator of freedom or just as an
> absence of choice?
>
> --
> Michael Perelman
> Economics Department
> California State University
> Chico, CA
> 95929
>
> 530 898 5321
> fax 530 898 5901
> http://michaelperelman.wordpress.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 07:11:43 -0700
> From: michael perelman <michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
> To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID: <49C8EA1F.5060708@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I am working on a new book about 17th & early 18th C. economists.
> There
> are several cases of murder and and assortment of other crimes usually
> associated with the profession.
>
> --
> Michael Perelman
> Economics Department
> California State University
> Chico, CA
> 95929
>
> 530 898 5321
> fax 530 898 5901
> http://michaelperelman.wordpress.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 08:23:51 -0600
> From: Bill Lear <rael@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
> To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID: <18888.60663.322891.971754@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Tuesday, March 24, 2009 at 07:09:32 (-0700) michael perelman
> writes:
>> ...
>> Even if these children defied all of our understanding of child
>> psychology and chose to have themselves beaten to earn more money for
>> their parents, would such treatment represent an expression of
>> slavery?
>> For example, some people in impoverished nations, such as China and
>> Japan and Russia, were so destitute that they sold themselves into
>> slavery (see Patterson 1982, p. 130). Voluntary slavery is said to
>> exist today in some of the poorest parts of the world. Would any
>> rational person see slavery as an indicator of freedom or just as an
>> absence of choice?
>
> My thoughts/questions parallel yours with regard to our "volunteer"
> military, the labeling of it as such is really ignoring the obscene.
>
>
> Bill
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:02:47 -0400
> From: ravi <ravi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
> To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID: <8AD8177C-A0AD-42F0-B546-E9D91E2116F8@xxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>
> ====================
>
> Canada's annual war on seals has begun. This year, sealers will
> shoot or bludgeon 338,200 of these gentle animals, all for the
> sake of "fashion." Most of these seals are just babies, and many
> are skinned alive on the ice while still conscious.
>
> http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/seal_hunt_09?rk=zp2EmU4aORwbW
>
> ====================
>
> --ravi
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:03:44 +0100
> From: "Robert Scott Gassler" <rsgassle@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
> To: "Progressive Economics" <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID: <6E5ADF0453E8411AA6F91565F67C16B9@winc82e3c78ec5>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I had Steve Cheung for a class in the early 1970s. I heard him
> describe the
> selling of children in China. His comment: "that's okay; they were
> just
> maximizing their wealth." He seemed serious.
>
> I bit my tongue rather than ask, "is that a positive or a normative
> statement?"
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "michael perelman" <michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "Progressive Economics" <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 3:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
>
>
>> More Stephen Cheung, from my Manufacturing Discontent
>>
>> Greg Clark proposed that "factory discipline [was] successful
>> because it
>> coerced more effort from workers than they would freely give ....
>> The
>> empirical evidence shows that discipline succeeded mainly by
>> increasing
>> work effort. Workers effectively hired capitalists to make them work
>> harder" (Clark 1994, p. 128).
>>
>> Greg Clark was referring to the sort of theory earlier proposed by
>> Clark Nardinelli, who, presumably in all seriousness, declared that
>> children in the factories would voluntarily choose to have their
>> employers beat them. In his words: "Now if a firm in a competitive
>> industry employed corporal punishment the supply price of child
>> labor to
>> that firm would increase. The child would receive compensations
>> for the
>> disamenity of being beaten" (Nardinelli 1982, p. 289). Does any
>> parent
>> seriously believe that children would make such a calculation?
>> Similarly, Steven Cheung maintains that riverboat pullers who towed
>> wooden boats along shore line in Pre-communist China agreed to hire
>> monitors to whip them to restrict shirking (Cheung 1983, p. 5).
>>
>> Even if these children defied all of our understanding of child
>> psychology and chose to have themselves beaten to earn more money for
>> their parents, would such treatment represent an expression of
>> slavery?
>> For example, some people in impoverished nations, such as China and
>> Japan and Russia, were so destitute that they sold themselves into
>> slavery (see Patterson 1982, p. 130). Voluntary slavery is said to
>> exist today in some of the poorest parts of the world. Would any
>> rational person see slavery as an indicator of freedom or just as an
>> absence of choice?
>>
>> --
>> Michael Perelman
>> Economics Department
>> California State University
>> Chico, CA
>> 95929
>>
>> 530 898 5321
>> fax 530 898 5901
>> http://michaelperelman.wordpress.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> pen-l mailing list
>> pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:05:28 -0700
> From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
> To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID:
> <93dbbd490903240905p1911c736hfaf0f55925b7399e@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Is an effort made to ensure that the seal population is conserved over
> the years?
>
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 8:02 AM, ravi <ravi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> ====================
>>
>> Canada's annual war on seals has begun. This year, sealers will
>> shoot or bludgeon 338,200 of these gentle animals, all for the
>> sake of "fashion." Most of these seals are just babies, and many
>> are skinned alive on the ice while still conscious.
>>
>> http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/seal_hunt_09?rk=zp2EmU4aORwbW
>>
>> ====================
>>
>> --ravi
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> pen-l mailing list
>> pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
> way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:09:06 -0700
> From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
> To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID:
> <93dbbd490903240909p718ba264oe9601d1be8b4d5dd@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Max B. Sawicky wrote:
>> http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/23/not-as-authentic-
>> as-i
>> t-seems/#more-4445
>>
>>
>> Schleifer, Weitzman, Rafael Robb . . .
>
> I know about Schleifer (Brad deLong's known criminal associate), but
> who are Weitzman and Robb?
> --
> Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
> way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:18:45 -0400
> From: ravi <ravi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
> To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID: <786C4AEF-5C9B-4605-A036-24F4C88DC5F3@xxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> On Mar 24, 2009, at 12:05 PM, Jim Devine wrote:
>> Is an effort made to ensure that the seal population is conserved
>> over
>> the years?
>>
>
> I don't know about that. In my case, it is an effort to stop brutal
> unnecessary murder of other living things.
>
>
>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 8:02 AM, ravi <ravi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> ====================
>>>
>>> Canada's annual war on seals has begun. This year, sealers will
>>> shoot or bludgeon 338,200 of these gentle animals, all for the
>>> sake of "fashion." Most of these seals are just babies, and many
>>> are skinned alive on the ice while still conscious.
>>>
>>> http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/seal_hunt_09?rk=zp2EmU4aORwbW
>>>
>>> ====================
>>>
>>> --ravi
>>>
>
>
> --ravi
>
> --
> Support something better than yourself ;-)
> PeTA => http://peta.org/
> Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/
> If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:20:08 -0700
> From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [Pen-l] neoclassical theory of work [was Law and Order: AEA
> To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID:
> <93dbbd490903240920x23320f0cw3ca6ee6af8247b59@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> michael perelman edu> wrote:
>> Greg Clark proposed that "factory discipline [was] successful
>> because it
> coerced more effort from workers than they would freely give .... The
> empirical evidence shows that discipline succeeded mainly by
> increasing work
> effort. Workers effectively hired capitalists to make them work
> harder"
> (Clark 1994, p. 128).<
>
> this is the standard neoclassical theory of management: as a group,
> workers have a collective good (a small-scale public good) in having
> everyone work hard (avoiding "shirking"), likely because of the
> interdependence of individual efforts. They thus hire a boss to
> provide that good. Presumably, they "pay" for this boss by accepting
> wages less than they could make if they didn't pay for the management.
>
> This assumes that somehow workers get together to hire a boss. This
> ignores the way that the collectivity of workers is often fragmented
> and individualized by competition in labor-power markets and the way
> in which bosses make efforts to preserve and increase this
> fragmentation ("divide and conquer"). It totally misses the "free
> rider" problem that neoclassicals usually invoke when dealing with
> collective goods problems.
>
>> Greg Clark was referring to the sort of theory earlier proposed by
>> Clark
> Nardinelli, who, presumably in all seriousness, declared that
> children in
> the factories would voluntarily choose to have their employers beat
> them.
> In his words: "Now if a firm in a competitive industry employed
> corporal
> punishment the supply price of child labor to that firm would
> increase. The
> child would receive compensations for the disamenity of being beaten"
> Nardinelli 1982, p. 289). Does any parent seriously believe that
> children
> would make such a calculation? Similarly, Steven Cheung maintains that
> riverboat pullers who towed wooden boats along shore line in Pre-
> communist
> China agreed to hire monitors to whip them to restrict shirking
> (Cheung
> 1983, p. 5). <
>
> Nardinelli throws in Adam Smith's theory of compensating wage
> differentials. That theory does not work because of the existence of
> unemployment, frictions, efficiency wages, etc. Back when I did an
> empirical survey of evidence for the compensating wage differential
> theory, the literature said that the only time it worked was when
> labor unions were present (the United Mine Workers won compensation
> for dangerous/deadly jobs, etc.) I've done a smaller survey since and
> asked labor economists about this. It's confirmed my earlier survey.
> --
> Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
> way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:25:10 -0700
> From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
> To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID:
> <93dbbd490903240925x2b122b0dw372d74eb12b9efa2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> me:
>>> Is an effort made to ensure that the seal population is conserved
>>> over
>>> the years?
>
> ravi:
>> I don't know about that. In my case, it is an effort to stop brutal
>> unnecessary murder of other living things.
>
> what happens if seals over-breed, the way deer have done in many
> places after their natural predators were killed off? I remember that
> a lot of deer died from starvation and sickness because they
> over-bred.
>
> NB: I'm not in favor of killing seals for rich people's furs. I'm not
> in favor of people wearing furs. But since humans are running this
> planet, we have the responsibility to try to solve the disasters we've
> created (like over-breeding).
>
> We shouldn't be overly concerned with the issue of cuteness. A lot of
> endangered species aren't cute the way baby seals are.
> --
> Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
> way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 12:29:19 -0400
> From: "Max B. Sawicky" <sawicky@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: RE: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
> To: "'Progressive Economics'" <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID: <002501c9ac9d$ae88be90$0b9a3bb0$@net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Marvin. Might have spelled it wrong. Famous Harvard prof and manure
> thief.
>
> Rafael Robb, game theorist, murdered his wife.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pen-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:pen-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Devine
> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 12:09 PM
> To: Progressive Economics
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
>
> Max B. Sawicky wrote:
>>
> http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/23/not-as-authentic-as-i
>> t-seems/#more-4445
>>
>>
>> Schleifer, Weitzman, Rafael Robb . . .
>
> I know about Schleifer (Brad deLong's known criminal associate), but
> who are Weitzman and Robb?
> --
> Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
> way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
> _______________________________________________
> pen-l mailing list
> pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 09:38:36 -0700
> From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [Pen-l] bancor?
> To: Pen-l <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID:
> <93dbbd490903240938x6d2b0541oe4797e1a1c14e4d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> China Wants A New Global Currency
>
> by The Associated Press
>
> NPR.org, March 24, 2009 7 China is calling for a new global currency
> controlled by the International Monetary Fund, stepping up pressure
> ahead of a London summit of global leaders for changes to a financial
> system dominated by the U.S. dollar and Western governments.
>
> The comments, in an essay by the Chinese central bank governor
> released late Monday, reflect Beijing's growing assertiveness in
> economic affairs. China is expected to press for developing countries
> to have a bigger say in finance when leaders of the Group of 20 major
> economies meet April 2 in London to discuss the global crisis.
>
> Gov. Zhou Xiaochuan's essay did not mention the dollar by name but
> said the crisis showed the dangers of relying on one nation's currency
> for international payments. In an unusual step, the essay was
> published in both Chinese and English, making clear it was meant for
> an international audience.
>
> "The crisis called again for creative reform of the existing
> international monetary system towards an international reserve
> currency," Zhou wrote.
>
> A reserve currency is the unit in which a government holds its
> reserves. But Zhou said the proposed new currency also should be used
> for trade, investment, pricing commodities and corporate bookkeeping.
>
> Beijing has long been uneasy about relying on the dollar for the bulk
> of its trade and to store foreign reserves. Premier Wen Jiabao
> publicly appealed to Washington this month to avoid any steps in
> response to the crisis that might erode the value of the dollar and
> Beijing's estimated $1 trillion holdings in Treasuries and other U.S.
> government debt.
>
> The currency should be based on shares in the IMF held by its 185
> member nations, known as special drawing rights, or SDRs, the essay
> said. The Washington-based IMF advises governments on economic policy
> and lends money to help with balance-of-payments problems.
>
> Some economists have suggested creating a new reserve currency to
> reduce reliance on the dollar but acknowledge it would face major
> obstacles. It would require acceptance from nations that have long
> used the dollar and hold huge stockpiles of the U.S. currency.
>
> --
> Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
> way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:02:08 -0400
> From: ravi <ravi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
> To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID: <19B6C770-66FB-440E-89DF-5E5E4C1D3C28@xxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> On Mar 24, 2009, at 12:25 PM, Jim Devine wrote:
>> what happens if seals over-breed, the way deer have done in many
>> places after their natural predators were killed off? I remember that
>> a lot of deer died from starvation and sickness because they
>> over-bred.
>>
>> NB: I'm not in favor of killing seals for rich people's furs. I'm not
>> in favor of people wearing furs. But since humans are running this
>> planet, we have the responsibility to try to solve the disasters
>> we've
>> created (like over-breeding).
>>
>
> The answer is to bring those predators back (which is entirely
> feasible in many cases)... but really, clubbing other animals to death
> under the banner of preventing starvation and sickness is not really a
> better option, is it?
>
>
>> We shouldn't be overly concerned with the issue of cuteness. A lot of
>> endangered species aren't cute the way baby seals are.
>
>
>
> The use of "cuteness" is tactical. Or do you think I encourage list
> members to oppose this annual brutality because I am worried about the
> loss of cuteness? ;-)
>
> --ravi
>
> --
> Support something better than yourself ;-)
> PeTA => http://peta.org/
> Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/
> If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 10:26:44 -0700
> From: michael perelman <michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
> To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID: <49C917D4.8030305@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> In defense of Weitzman, he only stole poop. The rest of our
> profession
> creates bad manure.
>
> Max B. Sawicky wrote:
>> Marvin. Might have spelled it wrong. Famous Harvard prof and manure
>> thief.
>>
>> Rafael Robb, game theorist, murdered his wife.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: pen-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:pen-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jim Devine
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 12:09 PM
>> To: Progressive Economics
>> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
>>
>> Max B. Sawicky wrote:
>> http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/23/not-as-authentic-
>> as-i
>>> t-seems/#more-4445
>>>
>>>
>>> Schleifer, Weitzman, Rafael Robb . . .
>>
>> I know about Schleifer (Brad deLong's known criminal associate), but
>> who are Weitzman and Robb?
>
>
> --
> Michael Perelman
> Economics Department
> California State University
> Chico, CA
> 95929
>
> 530 898 5321
> fax 530 898 5901
> http://michaelperelman.wordpress.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 10:54:42 -0700
> From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Law and Order: AEA
> To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID:
> <93dbbd490903241054i60845ef1t968e68ef51f39a08@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> michael perelman wrote:
>> In defense of Weitzman, he only stole poop. The rest of our
>> profession
>> creates bad manure.
>
> why would anyone steal poop? did it help him attain equilibrium?
> --
> Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
> way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 13:55:00 -0400
> From: ravi <ravi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] computer question regarding proxy servers
> To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID: <B5270448-DC23-49CB-B027-7B003F317E70@xxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> On Mar 21, 2009, at 4:34 PM, michael perelman wrote:
>> Why does something change the settings on my system to show a proxy
>> server?
>
>
>
> That's too vague! What's showing a proxy server? Your web browser?
> What browser do you use? Does this happen when you are at work and
> home?
>
> --ravi
>
> --
> Support something better than yourself ;-)
> PeTA => http://peta.org/
> Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/
> If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:19:42 -0700
> From: Jim Devine <jdevine03@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
> To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID:
> <93dbbd490903241119q65ab5c8au23ccfef5a35b4fa4@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> ravi wrote:
>> The answer is to bring those predators back (which is entirely
>> feasible in
>> many cases)... but really, clubbing other animals to death under the
> banner
>> of preventing starvation and sickness is not really a better
>> option, is
> it?
>
> No, clubbing critters is a bad thing. It demeans the clubbers while
> inflicting unnecessary pain on the clubbees.
>
> In the case of deer, I think that there's nothing wrong with using
> hunters as substitute for predators. However, I think hunters should
> be required to eat all the venison they produce (or to sell it to
> someone who will eat it). Whenever animals are slaughtered (including
> mole rats and other non-cute critters), a serious effort should be
> made to find a use for the results.
>
> My problem with PETA is that they tend to value animals over people.
> Or maybe their PR is so bad that they only _look_ like they value
> animals over people. (They may be closet humanists.) For example,
> they're not just against testing on animals to develop make-up (which
> seems reasonable tom me). They're also against testing
> human-life-saving drugs on animals.
>
> me:
>>> We shouldn't be overly concerned with the issue of cuteness. A lot
>>> of
>>> endangered species aren't cute the way baby seals are.
>
> ravi:
>> The use of "cuteness" is tactical. Or do you think I encourage list
> members
>> to oppose this annual brutality because I am worried about the loss
>> of
>> cuteness? ;-)
>
> I try not to attribute motives to anyone on the list, since I can't
> read minds (especially in e-mails). But PETA and Bridget Bardot (if
> she's still around) are pretty overt with their thinking and seem more
> concerned with cuteness than they should be.
>
> The use of cuteness in a tactic prevents a lot of communication with
> the non-PETA folks. Is there some effort to present the PETA world
> view to everyday people? _why_ should we give up on testing pro-human
> drugs on animals?
> --
> Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
> way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:40:14 -0400
> From: ravi <ravi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
> To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID: <D3713363-D763-4E8E-AA69-CA828169613D@xxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> On Mar 24, 2009, at 2:19 PM, Jim Devine wrote:
>>
>> My problem with PETA is that they tend to value animals over people.
>> Or maybe their PR is so bad that they only _look_ like they value
>> animals over people. (They may be closet humanists.) For example,
>> they're not just against testing on animals to develop make-up (which
>> seems reasonable tom me). They're also against testing
>> human-life-saving drugs on animals.
>>
>> But PETA and Bridget Bardot (if
>> she's still around) are pretty overt with their thinking and seem
>> more
>> concerned with cuteness than they should be.
>>
>
> I don't know... I don't find hen (referred to as "chicken" in American
> English?) particularly cute. A lot of PETA actions protest their
> torture. Now they may use chicks to symbolise the hens, because indeed
> chicken are cute, but again that's tactical.
>
>
>> The use of cuteness in a tactic prevents a lot of communication with
>> the non-PETA folks. Is there some effort to present the PETA world
>> view to everyday people?
>
>
> PETA believes that their efforts are indeed a presentation to everyday
> people. And judging from the response from my niece and her friends,
> it seems to work quite well. For the cerebral stuff, there is Peter
> Singer.
>
>
>> _why_ should we give up on testing pro-human
>> drugs on animals?
>
>
> Here's PETA's take on it: http://www.peta.org/about/faq-viv.asp
> (they are spot on, IMHO, in the first paragraph, w.r.t the gains in
> general health)
>
> Here's Singer's take on it:
>
> "Whether or not the occasional experiment on animals is defensible, I
> remain opposed to the institutional practice of using animals in
> research, because, despite some improvements over the past thirty
> years, that practice still fails to give equal consideration to the
> interests of animals. For that reason I oppose putting more resources
> into building new facilities for animal experimentation. Instead,
> these funds should go into clinical research involving consenting
> patients, and into developing other methods of research that do not
> involve the harmful use of animals."
>
> --ravi
>
> --
> Support something better than yourself ;-)
> PeTA => http://peta.org/
> Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/
> If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:53:03 -0700
> From: Bill Burgess <billburgess@xxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
> To: Progressive Economics <pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.1.20090324114148.040f34b8@xxxxxxx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> Please be a little more critical and reflective about a campaign that
> targets fishers and indigenous people who hunt for a living in the
> traditionally-poorest province in the country. I used to work in a
> cattle/pork slaughterhouse so I know what tender mercies went into
> your meat from the supermarket, notably the veal.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> pen-l mailing list
> pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
>
>
> End of pen-l Digest, Vol 397, Issue 1
> *************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> pen-l mailing list
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- Thread context:
- [Pen-l] Guest of Cindy Sherman,
Louis Proyect Thu 26 Mar 2009, 18:06 GMT
- [Pen-l] Michigan jobless rate 12%,
c b Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:21 GMT
- [Pen-l] Questions about the film Capitalism Hits the Fan,
Rick Wolff Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:20 GMT
- [Pen-l] Administration unveils financial system overhaul,
c b Thu 26 Mar 2009, 14:59 GMT
- [Pen-l] Timmy meets the Establishment,
Doug Henwood Wed 25 Mar 2009, 20:00 GMT
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