Re: [Pen-l] Question on overdetermination

["Anthony D'Costa" <promothesdcosta@xxxxxxxxx>]

I think the way the "overdetermined" (OD) school is using
"historicism" relative to other marxists (OM) (since the OD school
also claims to be marxists) is that OD does not seem to believe in the
inevitability of the progress associated with the stagist school of
orthodox marxists (which Jim correctly notes is not equal to OM).  The
rejection of historicism by OD is not that OD is ahistorical but that
OD rejects the teleological movement associated with historicism,
meaning the determined progressivity of history as it unfolds (with
say capitalism wiping away the remnants of feudalism).

Now clearly if one were to simply use certain ethical arguments, the
progressivity of capitalism can be challenged but without having to
resort to OD perspective.  Thus loss of livelihoods due to capitalist
market growth or environmental degradation could be politically
mobilized to counter capitalism.  I don't think one needs to mobilize
OD to come to this kind of conclusion, especially when empirical
verification is generally absent with OD.

Cheers, Anthony

On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 11:26 PM, Carrol Cox <cbcox@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> Jim Devine wrote:
>>
>> Anthony D'Costa wrote:
>> > Thanks much for these.  This is pretty much what I think.  Cullenberg
>> > and others reject what they call orthodox marxism because of its
>> > reductionism but also they reject the historicist project associated
>> > with orthodox marxism (also known as the progressivity of capitalism).
>>
>> you're welcome. For what it's worth, the idea of the "progressivity of
>> capitalism" is not necessarily part of "orthodox Marxism."
>
> For over 30 years I have been trying to figure out what various writers
> mean by "histoicism" -- many use it, but very few offer even
> parenthetical gestures towards indicating its sense.
>
> The sense referenced here is not one I have ever seen. One defintion (by
> a writer in Critical Inquiry, whose name I forget just now) was the
> belief that the meaning of an entity was determined by its origin. That
> is, the historic8ist premise is that "Cause = meaning." This is just the
> opposite of Karl Marx's perception that "The natomy of the human is a
> key to the anatomy of the ape." That is THE APE'S ANATOMY IS NOT REPEAT
> NOT A KEY TO THE HUMAN ANATOMY. History only makes sense when read
> backwards. Modern racism illuminates 18th/19th- century slavery, but
> slavery does not tell us anything about modern racism. Stephen Jay Gould
> has the same anti-historicist perspective on evolution. If the 'tape of
> life' were palyed over again, it would probably be quite different.
> There were more or less infinite potential in the biota of (sa6) 20
> Million BP, of which the emergence of primates was only one. That
> primates did emerge was purely contingent and not necessitated by
> anything in previous history of life. Put otherwise, effects tell you a
> lot about origins, but origins tell you nothing very interesting (or
> dependable) about effects.
>
> But clearly different writers have quite different modes of thought in
> min when they use the word "historicism," so whether this throws any
> light on the present discussion I do not know.
>
> Carrol
>
>
>
> There's
>> some evidence that Marx himself thought that the capitalist stage
>> might be "skipped"  (though at this point, that point is moot, since
>> capitalism has already swallowed almost all of the world). There are
>> lots of perspectives that reject these notions that aren't part of the
>> "overdetermination school."
>> --
>> Jim Devine / "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own
>> way and let people talk.) -- Karl, paraphrasing Dante.
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-- 
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Anthony P. D'Costa
Professor of Indian Studies
Asia Research Centre
Copenhagen Business School
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