Bureaucracy (cont.)

["Charles Brown" <CharlesB@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

(Charles: This is a continuation of a post that got so long that it ran out of email room)

Jim D.
 That's why some people think of the old
USSR as being like "one big corporation" (so-called state capitalism). (I
disagree with them, BTW.)

I agree that "bureaucracy" should not be used as a buzz-word for "socialist"
"communist" or "government" - that's why I've been very clear in my usage,
using the term in another way.

BTW, "market" is often used as a buzz-word for "the New York Stock
Exchange." Does this mean we should drop the word "market"?

I told >> the old (and admittedly tired) joke about the Soviet  showing the
Amurrican the Moscow subway. The latter says "yes, this is beautiful -- but
where are the trains?" and the Soviet responds by saying "what about the
lynchings in the South?" I don't see why one  can't say "the emperor had no
clothes" about both super-powers. The old USSR was a class system, as is the
USA. <<

CB:> Sounds like a joke made up by an anti-Soviet. When I was in Moscow
there were plenty of trains in the subway. The only thing you might add to
make it fit here is some claim that the trains were absent due to the
"bureaucracy" of the Communist Party.<

Some anti-Soviet jokes are very good (unlike the one I quoted). You should
look at THE BIG RED JOKE BOOK (published in the 1970s by Pluto Press, I
think). It has lots of funny jokes about bureaucrats (both capitalist and
Soviet) by rank-and-file workers.

^^^^^^^^

CB: Did you hear the one about long lines at Lenin's tomb when the SU was breaking up ? People wanted to see Lenin turning over in his grave.

By the way, if there is some implication that I can't laugh at the Soviet Union or its weaknesses, that's another anti-Soviet stereotype or anti-Communist. Somehow "non-dogmatic" leftists _think_ they have a better sense of humor than "dogmatic" leftists.  NOT !


^^^^^^^^^^

_Of course_ there were trains in the Moscow Metro. But almost all jokes are
based on partial untruths. The point of the joke was that when their system
was criticized by people from the West, Soviet apologists often would be
extremely defensive (as you seemed to be), rushing to point to (often-real)
flaws in the US system.

^^^^^^^^^^

CB: I got what the point of the joke was. But it assumes that somehow this type of response - talking about a problem in the US system in non-response to a problem in the Soviet system - was some widespread thing that occurred on the part of defenders of the Soviet system, ( and of course that it was not typical of defenders of the US system !) But you haven't presented any evidence that this occurred often or more in relations to defenders of the Soviet system. So , it assumes something it hasn't demonstrated, and in the process perpetuates another anti-Soviet stereotype - that defenders of the Soviet system avoided giving answers and therefore DIDN'T HAVE GOOD ANSWERS TO SUCH QUESTIONS AS THE ONE POSED IN THE JOKE.   NOT !

^^^^^^^^^


 A more serious response would be to say "I'm
organizing workers and other oppressed groups to get rid of these
incompetents and crooks who run our society" or "we're working to make the
system more democratically accountable" or even "out administrative
apparatus is inefficient and is need of reform."

> The closer analogy would be if the American asked if the  train was
delayed because it was a socialist system, and the Soviet replied, no, when
I was in New York, I had to wait for a train , and that was in a capitalist
system.<

Analyzing any joke too much kills it. Perhaps that specific joke deserves
killing, but how about the one that says "capitalism is the exploitation of
man by man; socialism is the reverse"?

^^^^^^^^^

CB: Yes, I have heard that one.



^^^^^^^^

> The point is "bureaucracy" has a history of ONLY  being a reference to one
emperor's no clothes, not both.  ( Not to mention you are from the country
of the emperor who you didn't mention )<

That's a very partial reading of the history of the usage of the word
"bureaucracy." Look again at the COMPTON'S description. It doesn't just
mention the bad side of bureaucracy, while the USSR is ignored.


^^^^^^^^^

CB: There first dictionary defintion you gave, which did not mention private corporate bureaucracy ( you had to add it) is an accurate representation of the conventional usage of "bureaucracy". Even the COMPTON passage is much heavier on the government than the private socalled bureaucracy. It only mentions the inclusion of private corps once, and then goes on to only discuss goverments as examples.