RE: the state

["Devine, James" <jdevine@xxxxxxx>]

Charles writes: >Here's my take on private property. I would define it
likes Engels in _The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the
State_ . It is not defined by it being alienable, or saleable as you put
it.  That is the definition of bourgeois, or capitalist private
property- that it is alienable, alienable in the market. In feudalism,
some forms of private property were "inalienable" ... The lord's and
church's lands were inalienable , as you say, but that does not mean they
were not private property in the general sense that Engels uses it in the
Origin. Private property means having some enforceable powers and
control over the property, regardless of whether you can alienate it
from yourself for cash. Of course, market sales were a much smaller part
of the feudal mode of production in general, than the bourgeois mode.
The control and power the feudal lords and bishops had was, of course,
the right to a portion of the products from the land.
...<

I see no point of arguing about definitions. My point was that the property
rights of the feudal period were qualitatively different from those under
capitalism. That's all I really care about in this context.

It should be pointed out that almost no significant "private property" is
_truly_ private, even under capitalism. Almost all private property
ownership had an impact on others (with the exception being consumer goods).
For example, an individual's ownership of a significant amount of the means
of production makes him or her eligible to grab a piece of the aggregate
surplus-value, which comes from social labor. Besides such "pecuniary
externalities," the use of so-called private property often has technical
externalities (pollution, etc.) Instead of private property, strictly
speaking we should use the phrase "private ownership."

This fits with Engels' notion that there's a contradiction between
socialized production (with societal impacts, externalities) and
individualized appropriation (from private ownership rights).
JD