PEN-L message, RE: RE: Productive Forces

I wrote: >>How do we measure the "productive forces," anyway?<<

Miyachi writes: >We measure productive force by quantity and value of commodities produced. It all. you forget always object people act on. labor productivity itself can't be measured without commodity workers product. An price of commodity is money-form of commodity value, it often hide real value of commodity.<

I don't quite get this. Are you saying that productive forces can only be measured in commodity-producing society? If so, I'd agree. This suggests that folks such as G.A. Cohen who see history as a long process of the increase in the "forces of production" (pushed by an assumed human drive to increase such forces) is limited to only those modes of production that produce commodities - mostly, capitalism. Of course, that goes against Cohen's pretensions, which is to present a "theory of history" (which he presents as belonging to Marx) which applies to all modes of production.

It also means that "productive forces" aren't always a good thing (a sign of "progress"), since producing more commodities (exchange-value) isn't the same thing as producing more use-value.

Eric N. writes: >I would go further. It could be argued that no "objective" measure of the level of productive forces can exist. Presumably a productive force is considered productive because it leads to some good or service that people want and/or need. But, as Smith and Marx recognized, wants and needs are (partly) socially/historically determined.... <

I agree.

Melvin P. writes: >My measure of the productive forces would be based on the application of advancing technology that complete the quantitative stages in the development of the infrastructure.

>Such a measurement was not possible for me, as a specific quantitative measurement of the industrial infrastructure, with revolutionary significance, until a new qualitative development in technology occurred...<

I don't understand this. Are you saying that nowadays that use-values can be quantified, so that use-value productivity (use-value per unit of labor input) can be compared over time and between goods or services produced?

Jim Devine