Re: Re: Re: RE: Re: Re: Re: Re:

[Chris Burford <cburford@xxxxxxxxxx>]

While Max is correct that sectarianism ends up excluding itself from
communications, and while it is true that the moderate arguably comprador
muslim states have not been destabilised once the war started, statements
like his to which Justin objected represent a gut response from citizens of
the USA. As policy such statements will be very counterproductive even from
the point of view of US hegemonism, and still more from the point of view
of the emerging Empire.

Supposing as seems very possible bin Laden together with a special force of
2000 Al Qaida fighters, is killed along with 1900 of them. 100 slip
away,  of whom 20 ............

It would have been far better to go through due process, or create it
globally, and negotiate with the Taliban government for the handing over of
bin Laden to an international court, through intermediaries.

In terms of the political economy of a list Max has a point. Stalin's
policy of directing the main blow against middle elements has only to be
implemented by a few to damage seriously the atmosphere of a list.
Unfortunately the authority for this policy derives from Lenin (Stalin
quotes "On the Struggle with the Italian Socialist Party" November 1920)
and clearly was a current of thinking in the whole of the Bolshevik
movement. Although that 3rd International tradition particularly after the
7th Congress came to accommodate with trade unionism and the left in
general, those who look back to Lenin as a source of inspiration today,
repeatedly throw up reversions to this style of polemic, which is all too
easily reproduced on the internet.

Despite his strength of feeling Justin is careful to say that Max's remarks
are vile, not that Max is vile. But it is a small step that some might not
be too careful about taking in their mind. And I am afraid on other lists
it might be said in a sectarian fashion that this list harbours someone
with Max's views. Max's remarks have validity about the reality of the
actual balance of forces in terms of how the current events will be seen
through the capitalist owned media by billions of people.

If Max or anyone else is wrong, people will become best convinced of this
if the main blow is not directed against him, or against any other
individual, such as the person whose name I have deleted from the thread
title. As I think Justin does.

Chris Burford





At 25/11/01 22:21 -0800, you wrote:
> I did not read Max's comments about the lack of civil liberties at first.
> I have to agree with Justin.  I find the "war" disgusting.  I don't think
> that the bombing of Sudan or the sanctions on Iraq have any more claim to
> morality than the attack on the World Trade Center.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 05:54:55AM +0000, Justin Schwartz wrote:
> > >
> > >Now let us all bow our heads in a moment of silence over
> > >the impending demise of several thousand fascist,
> > >anti-semitic, misogynist terrorists.  (One suspects
> > >they are not down with the GBLTGTS thing either.)
> > >Oh woe!  They won't get fair trials.
> > >They won't get public defenders.
> > >They won't get three meals a day.
> > >They won't get cable tv.
> > >They will receive much as they have given.
> >
> > Max, this is genuinely vile. The people who require due process are
> first of
> > all the shits and scumbags. The principle that no person shall be deprived
> > of life or liberty without due process of law doesn't make an exception
> for
> > the bad guys. I am astounded that I have to explain this to you. There are
> > several reasons for this. In the first place, without due process, we have
> > no assurance that we are getting the guilty and not the innocent. Most,
> > perhaps all, of the Taliban and maybe many al-Quaida members,
> despicable as
> > their politics may be, had nothing more to do with 9/11 than you did. Does
> > that matter in your equation, or is it enough for you that they are
> > antisemites and misogynists? In which case there are a lot of people
> who can
> > be rounded up and railroaded, but we sort have to abandon the First
> > Amendment.
> >
> > In the second place, you're next. Do you think that if the principle of
> > abandoning due process when the targets are bad guys is accepted that it
> > will stop with foreign members of organizations that the US has designated
> > terrorist?
> >
> > I don't know what has got into you. This is the ABC of liberal democracy.
> > These are hard won victories that cost the blood of many tens of thousands
> > or more. And you are gloating about throwing them away and handing the axe
> > to people for whom the difference between you and al-Qaida is
> insignificant.
> > Why have you gone stupid and contemptible just at this moment when we need
> > every person we can find standing behind civil liberties? Please come
> back,
> > we miss the old Max!
> >
> > jks
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
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> >
>
> --
> Michael Perelman
> Economics Department
> California State University
> Chico, CA 95929
>
> Tel. 530-898-5321
> E-Mail michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx