Re: Re: Oil & Socialism

[Jim Devine <jdevine@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Yoshie writes:
> ... capital takes no account of environmental concerns unless society
> forces it to do so; and it seems evident that environmental movements are
> unable to make capital & the state take more than greenwashing measures.
>
> I think it is not very likely that the world makes a transition from
> fossil fuels to non-fossil fuels under capitalism.  Mark thinks that it is
> technologically impossible to do so; I, in contrast, think that it is
> politically impossible to do so under capitalism.

I think that if the environmental movements are strong enough and  _global_
enough,  then it's possible that they can make capital & the states take
more than greenwashing measures (and the shifting of production to
countries with low environmental standards). Whether or not this is
possible without abolishing capitalism is something we shall see in
practice (since it's hard to see abstractly). Whether reform is possible or
not, the key is to strengthen the opposition to capitalism's dirty ways. So
the suggested practice -- what we _should_ do -- is the same, either way.

To my mind, the key issue with fossil fuels is not the absolute shortage
that Mark talks about but instead the environmental impact.  So for that
issue, the previous paragraph applies.

Jim Devine jdevine@xxxxxxx &  http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine