[PEN-L:9635] For Max

["Craven, Jim" <jcraven@xxxxxxxxx>]

Max,

We must be telepathic. While in Canada this weekend, I too reflected on your
comments. I must say that you too have a point. As you noted, just as some
Zionists may cynically use/misuse--and in my opinion desecrate--the true
dimensions, lessons and scope of the nazi Holocaust for hidden or
not-so-hidden agenda (focusing only on the Jewish victims or not discussing
some of the painful aspects of the Holocaust in reference to some
collaborators) so I think it is true that some leftists have indeed latched
on to the American Indian Holocaust as a vehicle for a critique of
capitalism without knowing anything about or linking up with American Indian
struggles. I was too precipitous and defensive in dismissing your arguments
and failed to appreciate the depth of what you were saying.

It is true that American Indian struggles can be used as you suggest because
frankly in all of my experience and research I do find that the inner
imperatives, interests, institutions and impulses of capitalism (total cost
minimization, total profit maximization, accumulation of capital, effective
competition, cheap resources and labor, "social capital accumulation" etc..)
that shape the "inner logic" and dynamics of capitalism are at the heart of
centuries of policies and practices vis-a-vis Indians and Indigenous Peoples
all over the world. It is in the documents of the capitalists and their
political servants themselves--shamelessly: Indian ways are non-capitalist
and a threat; Rand Corporation studies showing prime sources of oil, gas and
minerals concentrated on Indian Reserves/Reservations; Capitalisms own
private property sacreds and laws calling into question the stolen lands
they purport to protect; etc.

So I do know what you are talking about. Ward Churchill wrote on this
subject about "Marxism and American Indians" and yes, some like the RCP and
others have been as abusive and arrogant and patronizing---while appearing
to be solicitous and sensitive-- dealing with American Indians and the
causes (I did not say their cause or our cause because oppression of anyone
is everybody's business in my opinion).

I may say I find a particular view hurtful or even leading to racist
consequences if adopted on a widespread scale but you are right, calling
anyone in particular a racist should be reserved only when there is some
really compelling evidence.

I freely admit that I am very ignorant on so many topics I could not even
begin to list them. Many of my own views are constantly in evolution--I hope
not devolution. So I have to see that others are similarly in progress and
reserve my invective for only the most hardened and unrepentent and clear
and dedicated racists, fascists, imperialists, anti-Semites, sexists etc...

Take care,

Jim


-----Original Message-----
From: sawicky@xxxxxxxxxx [mailto:sawicky@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, July 26, 1999 11:36 AM
To: pen-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [PEN-L:9632] RE: RE: Re: tiresome debates


Jim C:
" . . . Yes, these debates are indeed "tiresome" for those removed from the
ugly realities of genocide that occurs every day in the US. . . . "

For the record, removed as I am, the word "tiresome" in
reference to this topic was employed by Brother Perelman,
and by no other (except insofar as the thread title was
retained).

For what it's worth, while washing the dishes over the weekend
I realized my ascription of the genocide scenario to political
ulterior motives "especially on PEN-L" (my words) was inappropriate
as far as you are concerned.  I do not think you talk about this
for the sake of a political world view.  For all of your righteous
fury on this subject (which I do not mean pejoratively), you have
not directly accused anyone of being a racist.  Your posts on
the subject are substantive and serious.  I just don't buy the
entire story.  In particular, I stand by my doubts regarding the
roots of genocide -- however defined, wherever observed --
and bourgeois-democratic capitalism (or communism, for that matter).

max