[PEN-L:8801] RE: Divisions on the left

["Charles Brown" <CharlesB@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

>>> "Max B. Sawicky" <sawicky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 07/02/99 04:26PM >>>
Michael wrote:
>The left took an awful long time recovering from the splits caused by WW I
>also.  You are absolutely correct.

Actually, they never really did recover. . . .
>>


The important one, about the divided left is a totally different
matter.  In 1914 the split between communists and social-democrats
was a real split in the left.  Today the split between communists
and social-dems is not a split in the left, because there is no
communist left to hold a candle to.  On PEN-L and LBO, near as I
can tell, no two of our local leninists belong to the same
organization.  Some movement.

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Charles: Is there a social democratic movement in the U.S. ? Oh there's somebody over there holding a candle to it.



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There is a brewing split between leftish social-dems and many
liberals, especially labor-orientd ones, on one side, and
Clinton/Blair "Third Way/New Democrat" types.  This is playing
out now in the EU, as others have noted, to an important extent
around the Balkans issue, as well as the failure of the centrists
to even rise to the level of their lukewarm campaign rhetoric
when it comes to domestic policy.



Charles: Since we are going outside the U.S., how many members of the
Chinese Communist Party can you hold a candle to ? Probably more than all the leftish social demcrats in the whole world.

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U.S. communists, most of whom you could stuff into a phone
booth, look hopefully to the real left breaking their way
out of disgust with Clintonism.  The likelihood of this
obviously spawns a lot of arguments on PEN-L which I won't
pursue right now, except to say that the Perelman/Proyect
formulation on PEN-L reflects this fantasy.  Hope that is
not out of bounds.

I can't say I don't enjoy reasonably civil exchanges w/this
point of view, since I engage in them often enough, but to
me the real value of PEN-L is that it's a place for the
non-stalinist/non-Clintonoid people to get our heads
together on economic and other issues.  Periodic scuffles
with smart people on the further left can be helpful in
this endeavor, so I have never minded their participation
on that account.  I do think the balance has shifted too
much towards the extreme; I attribute it to the atmosphere
of intimidation and spam that I discussed last week. Bad
talk drives out some good talk, though some of the threads
in the past ten days have been pretty good.

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Charles: How big is the non-stalinist/non-Clintonoid movement ? I guess the Republicans are non-stalinist/non-Clintonoid.


Charles Brown