[PEN-L:8182] Re: Re: Re: Re: California Green Party AssemblyRepresentiverequests help

["Henry C.K. Liu" <hliu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

I am guilty as charged.  It is my Harvard education.  But I am talking about
California, not the Third World, so an American attitude is not entirely out of
place.
Your statement about Corbu was not accurate; he was very critical of suburban
sprawl and the American city.

 As for the cost issue, I think you misread me.  I was trying to debunk the common
myth that rail transit is more expensive than highways.
Most of the points you make are reasonable though not conclusive.  As I said in my
previous post: "There are of course many other issues and unintended consequences,
but this will suffice for now.
The issue is not rail vs cars, because each of us will use both at different times
if both are available."
And it is good that you raise some other issues. Other will raise some more.
I did suggest that, in the final analysis, transportaton is a political issue with
which you post seemed to agree.

Henry C.K. Liu

Wojtek Sokolowski wrote:

> At 11:50 AM 6/22/99 -0400, Henry Liu wrote:
> >of automobile configuration.  Cars of course are air polluting.
> >Yet, the advantages of the highway/auto system are not insubstantial.  It
> >serves effectively the spread-out existing urban patterns, albeit because the
> >pattern grew from it.
> >The car provides the driver with considerable freedom of movement and timing.
> >There is no need to wait for the next train which in off peak hours never
> >comes.  The car is relatively more protective from urban crimes in empty
> >stations.  It is imminently more comfortable than the best subway train.  In
> >California, it is a common sight to see urban planners and economists who
> drive
> >their fancy cars to meetings to promote urban rail mass transit.
> >What is needed is a coordinate balance between peak hour concentration
> >transportation needs and non-peak freedom for each city according to its
> >historical conditions and special characteristics.
> >The cost efficiency issue is a red herring, at least on a national basis.
>
> Not so fast Henry!  If there is a cost to an activity but nobody calculates
> it, does it still consitute a cost?
>
> You have been quite critical about Western mentality - yet your own writing
> displayes some of it worst characteristic - relativistic subjectivism.
> Your cost/benefit calculation takes into account only monetary costs (fees
> and subsidies) but ignores hidden costs.
>
> Suburban sprawl, which you mention as a disadvantage for "linear" rail
> transportation is a dirfect result autmobilie based transportation.
> Without individual autos sprawl would not be possible without substantially
> reducing mobility.  Yet sprawl poses a tremendous social and political cost
> to a society - from the destruction of natural environment to social
> fragmentation and th eproblems it causes: anomia, crime and and th eloss of
> political control.  Oh yes, suburbs wre cited by late 19th and 20th century
> social engineers and architects, such as  Le Corbusier, as the "final
> solution" to the labor unrest problem.
>
> So the illusion of securty and comfort created by car is comprable to
> "protection" provided by gangsters - a protection from adverse results of
> their own existence.  Somehow, in Europe people do need to lock themsleves
> in their car to "protect" themselves from "dangers" of public places - only
> in amerikkka.
>
> Anothe hidden cost is death toll.  Car-based transportation is much more
> accident prone (by sheer law of probability) than rail-based transportation
> - but it is the people who pay the ultimate cost - it is them who die in
> accidents not the ratfucking urban planners.  Add to it the animals killed
> on the roads - it would be very arrogant not to consider that factor.
>
> Finally the quality of life -it is very amerikkkan to consider isolation
> form other people car provide to be synonymous with freedom and comfort.  I
> find it very depressing - i'd rather spend time in the company of people on
> a train.  but hey, i was not born in this socially enginneered society (and
> proud of it) so i am not a big fan of privacy and security.
>
> FC - fuck cars (remember the unabomber)
>
> wojtek