[PEN-L:883] Re: Re: sell-out Indians and western arrogance

["James Michael Craven" <cravjm@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On 14 Aug 98 at 15:24, Ricardo Duchesne wrote:

>
>
>
> JC:
>
> Further Response: I'm sorry but you are just ignorant about Indians,
> Indian History and Indian Society; your reference to "nomadic way of
> life" reveals your basic ignorance (Most Indian Nations formed stable settlements
> and stable agricultural practices long before Mesopotamia, Babylonia
> etc) I am not saying this as a slur. I am ignorant on so many topics
> I couldn't even begin to list them--we are all ignorant, only on
> different topics. But on the topic of Indians, you obviously know
> absolutely nothing. Try doing some serious research before writing
> on the topic. Perhjaps start with Weatherfords works, then go to Vine
> Deloria's "Red Earth, White Lies", "Custer Died For Your Sins",
> American Indians, American Justice" , then perhaps some of Ward
> Churchill's Stuff and most of all, try going to the original sources
> like George Bird Grinnell's "Blackfoot Lodge Tales".
>
> RD:
> Am a generalist by profession. You are the expert on Indian affairs.
> We need experts, but the generalist, as we all know,  has a better
> view of  the forest.  New World Indians did not practice
> agriculture before Mesopotamians, or Babylonians. The neolithic
> revolution in the east is dated to about 10.5 thousand years ago.
> In Mesoamerica to about 7, 000 years ago. Towns were already present
> in the east 8000 years ago, if not earlier. But settled village life in
> Mesoamerica  began around 3.5 thousand years ago. (Perhaps because
> agriculture was more sporadic, plus no large animals were
> domesticated).
>
> Now, what about North American Indians? The evidence
> is that domestication there came even later. Permanent villages
> eventually came, but never a civilization, or a state (as with the Aztecs,
> or Incas). Meanwhile, many remained hunters and gatherers,
> particularly in the northern regions. So, by and large, North American
> Indians were nomadic. What's wrong with being nomadic?
>
> ricardo

Response: I am very busy so the brief response: 1) I am not an expert
(self-proclaimed or otherwise) on "Indian Affairs and would never
claim to be one; 2) "The evidence" for dating of Indian settlements
you assert but do not cite; check out Vine Deloria's "Red Earth,
White Lies" about the datings of Anthropologists/Paleontologists pro
and con (exhaustive bibliography) and then get back to me; 3) I don't
know what a "generalist" is exactly--is that another name for a
dillettante? The Forest and the Trees thing is a meaningless cliche
for me 4) Nothing wrong with being Nomadic but if Indians were
Nomadic (often asserted by present-day whites to subvert legitimate
Indian land claims along with "they made no 'improvements' to the
land, "they did not hold continuous occupancy", they did not really
'discover' the land as true 'discovery' means more than original
occupancy" yada yada ) there would be no question of some of the
lands claims about which ther are serious questions.

Check out the list of references that I gave you (you have not given
one signle reference to serious work on INDIAN issues and
perspectives) and then maybe we can have an exchange; I'm not
interested in exchanges with people uninformed on even the basics of
the subject.

Jim Craven

> > ames M.S. Craven
> > >
> > > >  James Craven
> > > >  Dept. of Economics,Clark College
> > > >  1800 E. McLoughlin Blvd. Vancouver, WA. 98663
> > > >  jcraven@xxxxxxxxx; Tel: (360) 992-2283 Fax: 992-2863
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > "The utmost good faith shall always be observed towards Indians; their land and
> > > > property shall never be taken from them without their consent."
> > > > (Northwest Ordinance, 1787, Ratified by Congress 1789)
> > > >
> > > > "...but this letter being unofficial and private, I may with safety give you a more
> > > >  extensive view of our policy respecting the Indians, that you may better comprehend
> > > > the parts dealt to to you in detail through the official channel, and observing the
> > > > system of which they make a part, conduct yourself in unison with it in cases
> > > where
> > > > you are obliged to act without instruction...When they withdraw themselves to the
> > > > culture of a small piece of land, they will perceive how useless to them are their
> > > > extensive forests, and will be willing to pare them off from time to time in exchange
> > > > for necessaries for their farms and families. To promote this disposition to exchange
> > > > lands, which they have to spare and we want, for necessaries which we have to spare
> > > > and they want,we shall push our trading houses, and be glad to see the good and
> > > > influencial individuals among them run in debt, because we observe that when these
> > > > debts get beyond what the individuals can pay, they become willing to lop them off
> > > > by cession of lands...In this way our settlements will gradually circumscribe and
> > > > approach the Indians, and they will in time either incorporate with us as ci
> > tizens
> > > > of the United States, or remove beyond the Mississippi.The former is certainly the
> > > > termination of their history most happy for themselves; but, in the whole course
> > > > of this, it is essential to cultivate their love. As to their fear, we presume that
> > > > our strength and their weakness is now so visible that they must see we have only to
> > > > shut our hand to crush them..."
> > > > (Classified Letter of President Thomas Jefferson ("libertarian"--for propertied white
> > > > people) to William Henry Harrison, Feb. 27, 1803)
> > > >
> > > > *My Employer  has no association with My Private and Protected Opinion*
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >  James Craven
> > >  Dept. of Economics,Clark College
> > >  1800 E. McLoughlin Blvd. Vancouver, WA. 98663
> > >  jcraven@xxxxxxxxx; Tel: (360) 992-2283 Fax: 992-2863
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > "The utmost good faith shall always be observed towards Indians; their land and
> > > property shall never be taken from them without their consent."
> > > (Northwest Ordinance, 1787, Ratified by Congress 1789)
> > >
> > > "...but this letter being unofficial and private, I may with safety give you a more
> > >  extensive view of our policy respecting the Indians, that you may better comprehend
> > > the parts dealt to to you in detail through the official channel, and observing the
> > > system of which they make a part, conduct yourself in unison with it in cases where
> > > you are obliged to act without instruction...When they withdraw themselves to the
> > > culture of a small piece of land, they will perceive how useless to them are their
> > > extensive forests, and will be willing to pare them off from time to time in exchange
> > > for necessaries for their farms and families. To promote this disposition to exchange
> > > lands, which they have to spare and we want, for necessaries which we have to spare
> > > and they want,we shall push our trading houses, and be glad to see the good and
> > > influencial individuals among them run in debt, because we observe that when these
> > > debts get beyond what the individuals can pay, they become willing to lop them off
> > > by cession of lands...In this way our settlements will gradually circumscribe and
> > > approach the Indians, and they will in time either incorporate with us as citizens
> > > of the United States, or remove beyond the Mississippi.The former is certainly the
> > > termination of their history most happy for themselves; but, in the whole course
> > > of this, it is essential to cultivate their love. As to their fear, we presume that
> > > our strength and their weakness is now so visible that they must see we have only to
> > > shut our hand to crush them..."
> > > (Classified Letter of President Thomas Jefferson ("libertarian"--for propert
> ied white
> > > people) to William Henry Harrison, Feb. 27, 1803)
> > >
> > > *My Employer  has no association with My Private and Protected Opinion*
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >  James Craven
> >  Dept. of Economics,Clark College
> >  1800 E. McLoughlin Blvd. Vancouver, WA. 98663
> >  jcraven@xxxxxxxxx; Tel: (360) 992-2283 Fax: 992-2863
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > "The utmost good faith shall always be observed towards Indians; their land and
> > property shall never be taken from them without their consent."
> > (Northwest Ordinance, 1787, Ratified by Congress 1789)
> >
> > "...but this letter being unofficial and private, I may with safety give you a more
> >  extensive view of our policy respecting the Indians, that you may better comprehend
> > the parts dealt to to you in detail through the official channel, and observing the
> > system of which they make a part, conduct yourself in unison with it in cases where
> > you are obliged to act without instruction...When they withdraw themselves to the
> > culture of a small piece of land, they will perceive how useless to them are t
> heir
> > extensive forests, and will be willing to pare them off from time to time in exchange
> > for necessaries for their farms and families. To promote this disposition to exchange
> > lands, which they have to spare and we want, for necessaries which we have to spare
> > and they want,we shall push our trading houses, and be glad to see the good and
> > influencial individuals among them run in debt, because we observe that when these
> > debts get beyond what the individuals can pay, they become willing to lop them off
> > by cession of lands...In this way our settlements will gradually circumscribe and
> > approach the Indians, and they will in time either incorporate with us as citizens
> > of the United States, or remove beyond the Mississippi.The former is certainly t
> > he
> > termination of their history most happy for themselves; but, in the whole course
> > of this, it is essential to cultivate their love. As to their fear, we presume that
> > our strength and their weakness is now so visible that they must see we have only to
> > shut our hand to crush them..."
> > (Classified Letter of President Thomas Jefferson ("libertarian"--for propertied white
> > people) to William Henry Harrison, Feb. 27, 1803)
> >
> > *My Employer  has no association with My Private and Protected Opinion*
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>  James Craven
>  Dept. of Economics,Clark College
>  1800 E. McLoughlin Blvd. Vancouver, WA. 98663
>  jcraven@xxxxxxxxx; Tel: (360) 992-2283 Fax: 992-2863
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "The utmost good faith shall always be observed towards Indians; their land and
> property shall never be taken from them without their consent."
> (Northwest Ordinance, 1787, Ratified by Congress 1789)
>
> "...but this letter being unofficial and private, I may with safety give you a more
>  extensive view of our policy respecting the Indians, that you may better comprehend
> the parts dealt to to you in detail through the official channel, and observing the
> system of which they make a part, conduct yourself in unison with it in cases where
> you are obliged to act without instruction...When they withdraw themselves to the
> culture of a small piece of land, they will perceive how useless to them are their
> extensive forests, and will be willing to pare them off from time to time in exchange
> for necessaries for their farms and families. To promote this disposition to exchange
> lands, which they have to spare and we want, for necessaries which we have to spare
> and they want,we shall push our trading houses, and be glad to see the good and
> influencial individuals among them run in debt, because we observe that when these
> debts get beyond what the individuals can pay, they become willing to lop them off
> by cession of lands...In this way our settlements will gradually circumscribe an
> d
> approach the Indians, and they will in time either incorporate with us as citizens
> of the United States, or remove beyond the Mississippi.The former is certainly the
> termination of their history most happy for themselves; but, in the whole course
> of this, it is essential to cultivate their love. As to their fear, we presume that
> our strength and their weakness is now so visible that they must see we have only to
> shut our hand to crush them..."
> (Classified Letter of President Thomas Jefferson ("libertarian"--for propertied white
> people) to William Henry Harrison, Feb. 27, 1803)
>
> *My Employer  has no association with My Private and Protected Opinion*
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


 James Craven
 Dept. of Economics,Clark College
 1800 E. McLoughlin Blvd. Vancouver, WA. 98663
 jcraven@xxxxxxxxx; Tel: (360) 992-2283 Fax: 992-2863
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The utmost good faith shall always be observed towards Indians; their land and
property shall never be taken from them without their consent."
(Northwest Ordinance, 1787, Ratified by Congress 1789)

"...but this letter being unofficial and private, I may with safety give you a more
 extensive view of our policy respecting the Indians, that you may better comprehend
the parts dealt to to you in detail through the official channel, and observing the
system of which they make a part, conduct yourself in unison with it in cases where
you are obliged to act without instruction...When they withdraw themselves to the
culture of a small piece of land, they will perceive how useless to them are their
extensive forests, and will be willing to pare them off from time to time in exchange
for necessaries for their farms and families. To promote this disposition to exchange
lands, which they have to spare and we want, for necessaries which we have to spare
and they want,we shall push our trading houses, and be glad to see the good and
influencial individuals among them run in debt, because we observe that when these
debts get beyond what the individuals can pay, they become willing to lop them off
by cession of lands...In this way our settlements will gradually circumscribe and
approach the Indians, and they will in time either incorporate with us as citizens
of the United States, or remove beyond the Mississippi.The former is certainly the
termination of their history most happy for themselves; but, in the whole course
of this, it is essential to cultivate their love. As to their fear, we presume that
our strength and their weakness is now so visible that they must see we have only to
shut our hand to crush them..."
(Classified Letter of President Thomas Jefferson ("libertarian"--for propertied white
people) to William Henry Harrison, Feb. 27, 1803)

*My Employer  has no association with My Private and Protected Opinion*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------