[PEN-L:11140] Re: Feminism is sexist?

["Karl Carlile" <joseph@xxxxxxxxx>]

KARL: Hi Maggie!

MAGGIE: In fact, men do criticize women as a gender constantly.  This is
pervasive throughout society.  Example #1. Who exactly do you think
is being criticized by the press as being welfare cheats?  All those
white guys with union jobs?  All those white, male, tenured
professors teaching economics? Example #2. Women's appearance. I wish
I had a dollar for every time I heard one of my co-workers criticize a
woman's weight while overlooking his own beer belly.  Or, the way
women dress: women who have blue collar jobs look too masculine,
women who wear mini skirts are asking to get raped, and forget about
women's suits in business--there is no way to dress to avoid
criticism. Example # 3.  How women perform the reproductive
activities assigned to them (by men).  Women who pursue careers are
'bad' mothers.  Women who stay home to take care of their children
while on public assistance are lazy.  Basically, you sitting and
having coffee (served by the waitress in her properly subservient
position) and thinking to yourself about how sexist feminists are
provides me with the picture of every self-satisfied man I've ever
watched who ordered women around while thinking of how liberal he
was!!!!!

KARL: Of course there is a constant  barrage of sexism at both the
linguistic and extra linguistic levels directed against women. I
never denied that. You are grossly misconstructing my comments
whetehr intentionally or not.

MAGGIE: This is an interesting conglomeration of contradictory
statements. Are you saying that all generalities about men are
sexist?

KARL: More misconstructions of my position.I certainly did not say
all. I said MUCH:"much of the genralities made about men as a gender
have a sexist character".  How can one take what you say seriously
when you misrepresent postings at this most elementary of levels.

  Hmm, so we are to see men as individuals.  O.k., but you
refuse to accord the same individuality to feminists who we must see
as a group of sexists.

KARL: This is a pain in the ass! More macro economy with the truth. I
never suggested that feminists constitute "a group of sexists." I
stated that many feminists are sexist. Clearly all feminists are not
sexists. Clearly there are men (such as I) and women who are
feminists and non-sexist in our politics.

Maggie please address the issue raised by me instead of constructing
fabrications. The kind of writing you are curently engaged in might be
cosntrued as a form of flame baiting. As you see I have been
earnestly trying to avoid any flaming despite what some would regard
as your best efforts with the bellows.




--------------------------------
On  6 Jul 97 at 5:46, MScoleman@xxxxxxx wrote:

In a message dated 97-07-04 06:47:02 EDT, you write:
>excellent job of flame provoking...  steve
Does this mean you agree with Karl Carlile?

>On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Karl Carlile wrote:
>> Comrades,
So, Karl, are you writing to your male "comrades" your female
"comrades" or your nonfeminist "comrades" of both genders?? >> >>
While having a mug of coffee I thought to myself Clearly talking to
yourself is not always the most productive activity.

>>that much of what is regarded as progressive feminism is essentially
>>sexist
and >>separatist.  It is quite common for many feminists to make
general criticisms of >> men as a gender. Yet if a man was to make
critical comments about >> women as a gender he would be castigated by
much of feminism as >> sexist. In fact, men do criticize women as a
gender constantly.  This is pervasive throughout society.  Example #1.
 Who exactly do you think is being criticized by the press as being
welfare cheats?  All those white guys with union jobs?  All those
white, male, tenured professors teaching economics?
 Example #2. Women's appearance. I wish I had a dollar for every time
 I heard
one of my co-workers criticize a woman's weight while overlooking his
own beer belly.  Or, the way women dress: women who have blue collar
jobs look too masculine, women who wear mini skirts are asking to get
raped, and forget about women's suits in business--there is no way to
dress to avoid criticism.
 Example # 3.  How women perform the reproductive activities assigned
 to them
(by men).  Women who pursue careers are 'bad' mothers.  Women who stay
home to take care of their children while on public assistance are
lazy.
          Basically, you sitting and having coffee (served by the
          waitress in
her properly subservient position) and thinking to yourself about how
sexist feminists are provides me with the picture of every
self-satisfied man I've ever watched who ordered women around while
thinking of how liberal he was!!!!!

>> It seems to me that much of the the generalities of a critical
>> nature made about men as a gender have a sexist character to them.
>> It would therefore seem that much of the so called feminist
>> movement is sexist and seeks to create a reactionary polarization
>> within the working class along gender lines thereby reinforcing
>> division within the working class.
This is an interesting conglomeration of contradictory statements.
Are you saying that all generalities about men are sexist?  Hmm, so we
are to see men as individuals.  O.k., but you refuse to accord the
same individuality to feminists who we must see as a group of sexists.
 Then, you define feminists as a "so-called ... movement."  Well, if
it's not a movement, how can it make overarching sexist statements?
Finally, you say feminism divides the working class.  Does that mean
feminism is ok for other classes?  How about professionals, should
they be allowed to be feminist?  Or, does this mean that working class
men should continue to be allowed to exploit the labor of women and
children within the home?  If this is the case, I suppose you would
agree that whites in the working class should be allowed to continue
to hold on to their racist attitudes too?

>>This in turn sustains the politically weak nature of
>> the working class.
Well, I am so glad to see you agree with someone.  The Republicans who
penned the "Contract with America" also blamed unwed mothers, and
women who seek roles outside the home, as the primary enemy of a
healthy economy in the United States.  You must be so proud to be
espousing the same logic as Newt Gingrich.

>>
>> In short sexism is prevalent both among men and women.
>>
>> Karl
So, you've run into a few sexist women, and you use this to justify
your own bigotry.  That's really intelligent!

Feminism is not associated with femaleness in the same fashion  as
menstruation.  In fact, there are many feminist men out there.
Broadly defined, feminism seeks to include gender into the academic
discussion within social sciences.  Clearly, you are of the school
which feels men don't have gender and women should shut up and clean.

maggie coleman mscoleman@xxxxxxx







                          Yours etc.,
                                     Karl