Re: [OPE-L] Marx's Form of Analysis

[Paul Bullock <paulbullock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hans,

just to let you know I ( as usual) agree with you. I think it is quite clear
from Engels afterword to Vol 3,  what Marx shows is how the law of value
works itself out as capitalism develops, in a way which is not  obvious  to
the partcipants or observers  ( rather as Ricardo's trade theory was not
intuitively obvious as Smith's was, if this isn't a misleading analogy at
scientific progress).

PS I downloaded all your pdf files but whether I'll get round to reading
them I don't know!!!

Paul Bullock.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hans G. Ehrbar" <ehrbar@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <OPE-L@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 4:20 PM
Subject: [OPE-L] Marx's Form of Analysis


> Jerry, you are right, I should not have called them "private
> producers" but "private individuals who make the decisions
> about production."  But I disagree with you (and I think
> others on this list) if you say value as a category can only
> be grasped if there is wage labor.  Say in a situation where
> all commodities that can be purchased in a society are
> produced by private producers who own their means of
> production, then
>
> (a) you will probably have a rough correspondence between
> exchange values and labor time (although this probably
> depends very much on it how easy it is for the producers to
> change between different lines of production, and I would
> also expect that there is a strong conventional element to
> both prices and production methods),
>
> (b) but with much higher certainty I would assume that there
> is money
>
> and (c) I would also expect that some people hoard money.
>
> All these are effects of the social relation "value".
>
>
> Hans.
>
>
> > 2. Hans:
>
> >> The private producers have human labour-power at their
> >> disposal and they have to decide what products to produce
> >> and what technology to use.
>
> > At the risk of stating the obvious --
>
> > Within any class society, the producers do not in general
> > decide what to produce or what technology to use.  These
> > decisions are made by those with the power to make them:
> > by capitalists under capitalism, slave-owners under slavery,
> > feudal lords under feudalism, etc.   The producers only make
> > these decisions in exceptional circumstances under capitalism:
> > e.g. in worker-owned producer cooperatives.  Even then,
> > they have limited power because (unless they own a natural
> > monopoly) the force of competition will tend to impose choices
> > on them.
>
> >> The market gives them the information necessary to do this
> >> only if the market participants equate all their commodities
> >> to one standard, i.e. money
>
> > What the producers lack under capitalism is not "the
> > information necessary"; what they lack is ownership and
> > control of the means of production. Value can not be
> > adequately grasped as a specific social relation without
> > reference to the later stages of Marx's analysis, including
> > Ch. 6 of Volume 1.
>
> > In solidarity, Jerry
>
>