Re: [Marxism] Actual data

["Joaquin Bustelo" <jbustelo@xxxxxxxxx>]

Marv writes: <<"Representative" or not, why is such emphasis being placed on
geographic location - or, rather, citizenship in an imperialist or
non-imperialist nation - as the primary determinant of consciousness?  My
impression is that the early Marxists who contributed most to an
understanding of this question did not seem to think so. If they had, they
would have rejected the notion of an alliance of the workers in the
imperialist nations with the national movements of the oppressed colonial
peoples as hopelessly utopian.>>

I'll leave aside the assertion about the argument being location or
citizenship as the primary determinant of consciousness. What I have written
is mostly about the U.S. working class movement, or rather, lack of one. 

But the point you raise about the Marxist teachers "would have rejected the
notion of an alliance of the workers in the imperialist nations with the
national movements of the oppressed colonial peoples as hopelessly utopian"
recalls the actual content of Roy's theses:

*  *  *

2. European capitalism draws its strength in the main not so much from the
industrial countries of Europe as from its colonial possessions. Its
existence depends on control of extensive colonial markets and a broad field
of opportunities for exploitation. England, the bulwark of imperialism, has
already suffered from overproduction for a century. Without the extensive
colonial possessions that are essential for the sale of her goods and at the
same time form the source of her raw materials, the capitalist order in
England would long since have collapsed under its own weight. At the same
time that British imperialism makes hundreds of millions of the inhabitants
of Asia and Africa into slaves, it also keeps the British proletariat under
the domination of the bourgeoisie.

3. The super-profits made in the colonies form one of the main sources of
the resources of contemporary capitalism. The European working class will
only succeed in overthrowing the capitalist order once this source has
finally been stopped up. The capitalist countries try, not indeed without
success, to restore their shaky position by extensive and intensive
exploitation of human labour and the natural wealth of the colonies. As a
result of the exploitation of the colonial population European imperialism
is in a position to grant the labour aristocracy in Europe a whole range of
concessions. While on the one hand European imperialism tries to force down
the absolute minimum level necessary to keep the proletariat alive by the
import of goods produced by the cheaper labour power of the workers of the
colonial countries, it is on the other hand prepared to sacrifice the
increased profits it could make in the home country in order to receive the
super-profits it can obtain by exploitation in the colonies.

*  *  *

Especially striking is the expression: "The super-profits made in the
colonies form one of the main sources of the resources of contemporary
capitalism. The European working class will only succeed in overthrowing the
capitalist order once this source has finally been stopped up."


-----Original Message-----
From: marxism-bounces+jbustelo=gmail.com@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:marxism-bounces+jbustelo=gmail.com@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Marv Gandall
Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 2:30 PM
To: Joaquin
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Actual data

"Representative" or not, why is such emphasis being placed on geographic
location - or, rather, citizenship in an imperialist or non-imperialist
nation - as the primary determinant of consciousness?  My impression is that
the early Marxists who contributed most to an understanding of this question
did not seem to think so. If they had, they would have rejected the notion
of an an alliance of the workers in the imperialist nations with the
national movements of the oppressed colonial peoples as hopelessly utopian.

Instead, the 2nd Congress of the Third International called for precisely
such an alliance, and the Indian Marxist, MN Roy, hailed it as a venue where
?for the first time, brown and yellow men met with white men who were not
overbearing imperialists but friends and comrades?. Sadly, I don't see that
same spirit in Joaquin's remarks. He seems to regard workers in the US and
other imperialist countries as irredeemably reformist. Am I mistaken? If
they are not irredeemable, then scorning their "white skin privilege" is not
the best way to reach out to them. The anger this has provoked on this most
unrepresentative list is a register of that.


---- Original Message -----
From: "Nestor Gorojovsky" <nmgoro@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "Marv Gandall" <marvgandall@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Marxism] Actual data


I have never presented myself as a representative of the ARgetninean
working class.

S. Artesian escribió:
> You posed the question, and the terms of the exchange, not I-- proclaiming
> that the only datum required was the fact that I would not have exchanged
> my
> position with that of a corresponding person in Latin America.
>
> Now you think the specific answer to your specific question, to your own
> terms, is somehow not representative?
>
> Please, I'm just as representative, or not,  of "my" working class as you
> are of yours.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Nestor Gorojovsky" <nmgoro@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <sartesian@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 12:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Actual data
>
>
> Yes, of course, you S. Artesian could have answered no other way. But
> would you consider yourself an average member of the USAmerican working
> classes? Come on, dear friend, come on...
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________
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