Re: [Marxism] work-needs

[Gaius Germanicus <caligula@xxxxxxxx>]

On Jul 11, 2008, at 8:21 PM, noah tucker wrote:
> But the current & future attempts to achieve socialism in this  
> century will gain much by an understanding, not only of the problems  
> and errors, but of the stunning successes in economic and human  
> development achieved in the last century by the USSR; and also by  
> China, and even by the state-led economies of social democratic  
> Europe and elsewhere.


Successes at a cost of HOW many lives?  And can you call it a success  
when the system then collapses into a mire that so far combines the  
worst traits of both socialist and capitalist ideas within two  
generations?  It happened suddenly in Russia, and it is happening  
slowly (as things there always happen) in China.  Russia HAD to adopt  
violent change in order to survive the Second World War, Mao CHOOSE to  
embrace violent change for no other reason that I can see but to cover  
for earlier failings.  Both attempts to force a square peg into a  
round hole involved shaving off the edges of the peg to the tune of  
millions upon millions of human lives.  Now anyone in a free society  
can practice at least simple communalism if not Marxism at NO cost in  
life and with minimal interference from the state by simply obtaining  
enough land to live on and a small number of machine tools and raw  
stock.  Unfortunately when you attempt to do it on ANY large scale,  
then the human factor, which ends in the cost in lives, becomes  
unavoidable.  This human factor is key to understanding the successes  
AND failures of both the above examples.

The ONLY "errors" of Soviet and Chinese attempts at a socialist utopia  
was the assumption that given a choice people will act for the good of  
society over the good of the individual, rather than using whatever  
power and influence they obtain to gain an edge, however slim, over  
the others within the collective.  Unfortunately ENOUGH people will  
yield to the temptation that policing the society becomes a major  
function of the government.  The appearance of enforcement becomes  
more important than the fact, and eventually the rot reaches all the  
way to the top.  Capitalism compensates for that in part, and assuming  
an unencumbered economy, by rewarding internal corruption with failure  
(A business cannot survive competitively if the executives are  
constantly dipping into the till).  However when the government  
becomes too close a party to business, a sufficiently large and  
corrupt business co-operative can in-culture itself into that  
government, at which point the situation rapidly becomes similar and  
capitalism begins to assume the form of fascism or imperialism.   
Although the people mitigate this effect, once it has proceeded to the  
point where the opinion of the "people" becomes irrelevant, then its  
just as bad if not worse than Soviet Communism.

Perhaps the first problem in the creation of any government  
instantiated by a given society is how to deal with simple human  
failings, and cultural norms, while still retaining a humane  
government and individual freedom.  Or if it is posited that this is  
impossible, as every attempt at Marxism seems to lead one to suspect,  
how to limit the damage from policing that corruption while still  
maintaining maximum liberty for the individuals in that society.

About the only GOOD thing about capitalism is that it fits well with  
the psychology of most modern humans, and therefore until human nature  
changes such that "greed" in one form or another becomes an aberration  
rather than the norm, a global marxists society will be unachievable.




A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they  
should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of  
independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would  
include their own government.  — George Washington



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