Re: [Marxism] zizek on tibet and china

["Ruthless Critic of All that Exists" <ok.president+marxml@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 4:01 PM, Paula <Paula_cerni@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> Ruthless asked:
>
> > What are some such brutally anti-democratic policies that the "decent
>  > leftists and liberals" support?
>
>  For example, the policy of bombing, invading and occupying other people's
>  countries .

Bombing, invading and occupying are horrible and require our
condemnation. However, I'm not sure we can characterize these as
"anti-democratic".

As Louis Proyect usefully reminded us, leftists do not and should not
act on the basis of poll data. For example, most Panamanians
(according to opinion polls at the time prior to invasion) welcomed
the US invasion of Pánama. So, one could argue that the invasion of
Panama was, actually, objectively a "democratic" policy. Most Iraqis
today (according to opinion polls), similarly, do not wish the
American troops to leave immediately. So the "democratic" policy would
be for the US to keep occupying Iraq for some more time.

Surely, as leftists, we cannot be expected to endorse such policies,
no matter how "democratic" they might seem. We need to call for
withdrawal. We would have (and did) oppose the invasion of Pánama.



>
>  I am not sure about Paul's view that China "is most unlikely to give any
>
> real concessions to the working class unless it is forced by the workers to
>  do so (a bit like Britain 100 years back)." China, like any other capitalist
>  nation, needs to cultivate a moderate middle class, involving not only
>  small-business people, but also more privileged workers - especially in
>  service occupations, the public sector, etc.  China's capacity to do this
>  seems set to increase as the country becomes wealthier. Depending on
>  economic conditions, China might even be able to increase overall working
>  class living standards substantially, even without being 'forced' - as it
>  happened in the West during the post-war boom.
>
>  Otherwise I very much agree with Paul's point about the hypocrisy of the
>  West's 'defence of democracy'. This is matched, on the other side, by the
>  hypocrisy of a Chinese government denouncing Western nationalism and media
>  bias.
>
>  You may all want to see this BBC page summing up some recent Chinese
>  internet reactions:
>  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7347821.stm
>
>
>
>  Paula
>
>
>
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