Re: [Marxism] Kosova independence fighter: One step forward, three steps back

["Michael Karadjis" <mkaradjis@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: marxism-bounces+mkaradjis=theplanet.net.au@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:marxism-
> bounces+mkaradjis=theplanet.net.au@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Fred Feldman
> Following these comments, I include the introduction by Karadjis,
> followed
> by this valuable statement on the current situation by a Albanian
> leader who
> is still fighting for independence, not for privileged client status
> under
> an occupation regime.

No, it isn't a statement by a "leader", but by a Kosovar Albanian
organisation called Vetevendosje (meaning "self-Determination')
>
> I see this statement as an important and positive development,
> although I
> think Karadjis' endorsement runs counter to his tendency to see the
> course
> followed by Albanian leadership as a process of "self-determination,"

In fact the declaration says very similar things to what I said. I said
there was only a "partial" fruition of the struggle for
self-determination, and pointed to the whole weight of imperialist
"supervisory" bodies preventing self-determination, and called for their
removal (as I/we have the last 9 years). The declaration below which you
think "runs counter" to that begins "The announcement of the Declaration
of Independence and recognition by the US, France, and the United
Kingdom is a step forward. Kosova for the first time has been recognized
as an independent state from these significant states of the world," and
then went on to say why it is also nevertheless not self-determination,
for much the same reasons I did. Actually my "welcome" to the "partial"
advance was much more cautious than their statement. And nor did I say
anything about the question of the "recognition" of the state by a
number of countries.
>
> Note the meaning of this stance. Kurti was prepared for a longer, in
> some
> ways more difficult struggle for Kosova independence, in order to
> achieve
> the real thing, while the KLA opted for supposedly leaping over the
> obstacles by supporting imperialism seizing Kosova from Yugoslavia,
> and
> supposedly turning it over to the KLA.

Your time frame a little difficult to understand Fred. Back in 1998-99,
Kurti (the leader of Vetevendosje) was in the KLA. In 1999, the KLA was
dissolved by NATO. The differences are about now, not about the original
seizure in 1999 (as far as I am aware - Kurti may have followed Demaci's
line back then). By the "KLA" I assume you are referring to Kosova's
current leadership, which covers all wings of the political spectrum in
their long historic fight for independence, not only the ex-KLA folk.
Both them and Kurti are saying there is a step forward in the current
*mitigation* of imperialist control (compared to the total control of
the last 9 years), but Kurti says that is not enough and wants to keep
fighting for more.

> Supporters of the Karadjis position make light of my placing the
> "independence" (actually imperialist slavery) won thus far by Kosova
> in
> quotes.

Clearly it is early in the morning Fred. Since I regularly place the
word "independence" in quotation marks myself, I'm not sure why I would
"make light" of you doing so as well. Please find a reference.

They insist that the US seizure of Kosova, supported and
> called for
> by the KLA, was not an act of aggression against Yugoslavia.

I insist the US war on Serbia was an act of aggression against Serbia. I
insist also that the imperialist occupation since 1999 is an affront to
the sovereignty of *Kosova*, whose legal status as *constituent unit* of
the *old* Yugoslavia had been illegally suppressed in 1989-90. An
entirely new state with a new constitution, also called Yugoslavia, was
established by Serbia and Montenegro. The former constituent unit of the
old Yugoslavia, Kosova, was not asked its opinion. Ironically for the
"legal people", the first UN security council recognising Kosova as part
of the second Yugoslavia was in June 1999, a decision imposed by NSTO
after its war.

Since the
> current process of "self-determination" can only exist under
> imperialist
> occupation, they are forced to accept the presence of imperialist and
> imperialist-backed forces as the price of continuing to advance
> "self-determination" on this line including through the cynical
> declaration
> of "independence."

I'm not sure who the "them" are, but they seem to be who you called
"supporters of Karadjis", in which case the above statement is obviously
false, since we view these imperialist forces as obstacles to
self-determination. But it is possible you were referring to the K
Albanian leadership.
>
> And to cover their position, they make the claim that I favor "handing
> over"
> Kosova from the Americans and their Albanian allies to the main enemy
> -- the
> Serb government.

I think someone might have said something like that, but I think he was
just asking for clarification on that point. I of course have made no
such claim about your view.

That is because I favor the complete, immediate,
> unconditional withdrawal of imperialist and imperialist-organized
> foreign
> forces from Kosova, regardless of the immediate effect on the current
> process of "self-determination" or independence.

So do we, but you also need to face the fact that if imperialist forces
leave, Kosova will be independent, since only the imperialist occupation
is blocking it, and has been for years.

>
> They try to paint me as a Albanian-phobe Serbophile who wakes up
> screaming
> from dreams of "Greater Albania"

Clearly you have been having bad dreams Fred. Please find a reference
for when I have ever painted you as an Albania-phobic Serbophile? I know
your position is far from that.

while they tilt toward the Serbophobe
> line
> of the imperialist media, and wake up screaming at dreams that
> Milosevic was
> not the Serbian Hitler

Hitler? Yes, clearly you are having bad dreams. Oddly enough, the whole
issue is far simpler than that. Milosevic is no more nor less
particularly vile than lots of other tyrannical and oppressive govts
around the world, mostly openly pro-imperialist and some that end up in
various kinds of conflict with imperialism. We have always opposed
imperialist wars against such reactionary regimes, but in general that
has not led us to do crass apologetics for the regime in question. We
think that is a separate issue. For example, we do not oppose the
invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan because we think Hussein and the
Taliban were just misunderstood, slightly bungling socialists. We oppose
these invasions because we oppose imperialist invasions. This is the
stance of the great majority of the left. It is only in the case of
Serbia that the Milosevic clique come in for some special crass
apologetics by a section of the left (clearly not including you), which
also features every attempt to minimise as much as possible the
suffering of the oppressed. IT is only in this case that a section of
the left gives *political support* to Milosevic, which it does not do
with Hussein, the Taliban etc. THAT is the reason it becomes an issue
that gets argued over, not because Milosevic is 'Hitler'.

-- what else could be the meaning of Karadjis'
> charges that Proyect was a "holocaust denier"

I've made no such charges.

> because he questioned
> some of
> the facts that went into the imperialist war propaganda against Serbia
> --
> some of which were simply not true.

Proyect in my opinion, and in your opinion too based on many posts
you've made on the list, and in private correspondence, does much more
than this, but still none of that makes him a holocaust or genocide
denier.

Yes of course some facts were simply not true, and some are. Like in any
other case. So "pulling babies from incubators" was obviously not true
when the charge was made about Hussein's troops in Kuwait, but that
presumably doesn't alter the truth of the genocide against the Kurds in
Halabja.
>
> Proyect has his own problems -- although, like Karadjis, he has his
> strengths as well

Very nice to hear we both have strengths and problems Fred, and to have
a neutral arbiter with a very balanced approach to be the assessor

-- but my crime is that I place the issue of Kosova
> independence in the framework of an actual, living world struggle
> against
> imperialist domination, whereas the defenders of the declaration of
> independence as a step forward place self-determination and
> independence for
> Kosova outside and above that framework, which provides ideological
> reinforcement for turning the struggle for self-determination and
> independence into a process of "self-determination" and "independence"
> through imperialist occupation.

Frankly I think you can do better than that. This is simply your mangled
interpretation. We oppose imperialist intervention and occupation in
that region. If you want to insist you're more against it, and you've
finally caught out some ready to "betray" - a good game on the web -
then be my guest. I'm sorry if I do not believe that demanding
imperialism out is the be all and end all of what we should say about a
situation. Obviously we cannot do any more about it, but I actually
believe socialists should a view of what is happening on the ground in
the region, to assess what actually helps or damages real people on the
ground in real situations.

Incidentally, despite your unusual charge of us bending to Serbophobia,
and your insistence that Kosova remains an issue of Serbian sovereignty,
while you hail this declaration as somehow better than our view, please
note that this declaration regards the imperialist impositions as
concessions to Serbia. Among other things, it says:

"The Declaration of independence has been trumpeted as an historic act
however it does not mention the history of Kosova. This declaration
absolves Serbia of guilt by not mentioning anywhere Serbia's aggression
and occupation of Kosova and the century of crimes and genocide that
Serbia has committed against the people of Kosova."

Personally, I do not believe a declaration of independence needs to
mention all that, though of course that is up to them. In my opinion,
the inclusion of this in the declaration will not aid the key issue:
rebuilding bridges between the K Albanian and K Serb communities. I
guess you would find that task somewhat boring, since in your view all
we should say is imperialism out and that's that. But re-forging any
kind of unity between working people of the region is key to being able
to really ultimately fight imperialist intervention in the region, which
will not be fought just by the declarations of western anti-imperialist
fighters on line, you or I Fred. Actually, I thought you used to know
that.


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