Re: [Marxism] Cuba to Dedicate Festival of Origins to China

[Louis Proyect <lnp3@xxxxxxxxx>]

Haines Brown wrote:

> I assume that we all have an ideological perspective, and because we
> are not sui generis that it conforms to some degree with the outlook
> or other persons or movements, and that since we have constructed that
> perspective through some time and effort, we are more inclined to
> persist with it than not and to have a commitment to it.

At a certain point, quantity turns into quality. When you have a list 
member pushing a "line" for approximately 3 years straight, it no longer 
is a matter of trying to engage other list members in debate. It is like 
being pursued down the street by a newspaper seller.

> This presumes that Walter's position deviates from an orthodoxy and
> that it is prescribed in the Marxism list's description. Assuming that
> neither is the case, for Louis to presume that he alone defines what
> is orthodox and he has the right to prevent from speaking anyone who
> does not happen to conform to his view strikes me as infantile.

Again, it is a question of degree. We have been dealing with how to 
assess the ANC, the IRA, the Workers Party in Brazil and the Chinese CP 
ad infinitum for the past 3 years at least. A normal person would pull 
together his or her ideas on the matter, put them on the table for 
debate and then move on to other topics. But when you keep repeating and 
repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and 
repeating and repeating the same arguments, it borders on trolling.

> The quote is a simple news report about the relation of nations that
> are relevant to socialism. As such, it is only subject to factual
> criticism, not rebuttal.

Yes, we have heard such news reports on a regular basis for nearly 3 
years. And they have usually led to furious quarrels, with the same 
point-counterpoint. This kind of thing unfortunately reminds me more of 
a Samuel Beckett play than debates within socialism.

> You presume to judge what Walter should say? Perhaps Walter saves his
> thoughts and comments about local affairs to other venues? Perhaps he
> identifies with the international working class and so is more
> interested in international affairs? Does the description of this list
> say that its focus must be parochial, that discussion of global
> matters is illegitimate?

Actually, the only other person who saw this mailing list as an audience 
for drumming up support on international questions on a nonstop basis 
was Yoshie Furuhashi. She was at least honest enough to admit that we 
are living in a post-socialist age.

> Who is this royal "we". I'm ignorant about virtually everything, but
> that sure does not keep me from thinking about things, asking about
> them, learning about them, and even sometimes expressing my views
> about them. If this list is only for a few self-styled experts, the
> cogniscenti, then the implication is that I don't belong here.

Sorry, Haines. I have the right to moderate this mailing list. I have 
ended threads on numerous occasions over the years when I think that 
they have begun to take on a repetitive character. If you are interested 
in an unmoderated forum, I can recommend alt.politics.socialism.trotsky 
or any other number of newsgroups. Or you might want to check out the 
mailing list for Green Left, which has much more of a laissez-faire 
character. Walter often sees fit to post 10 times a day there.

> This is childish. Water in the quote above reports facts rather than
> offer an analysis. Perhaps the context needs to be there. But
> regardless, based on the works of Marx you cite, what constitutes a
> "Marxist" analysis is very flexible.

Of course. But if you are going to make the case that socialist should 
support the Chinese government, it stands to reason that you would 
analyze class relations in China. Right?

> What arrogance! I hope you don't presume to tell me what to read or
> not to read. Who make you our teacher? Such a role would seem to
> contradict the function of a list moderator.

I actually think I do a very good job as moderator. If there's anything 
I've learned over the past 9 years as moderator of Marxmail, it is how 
to keep monotony to a minimum. People trained on the sectarian left have 
very bad habits. I created this forum for people who are totally 
critical of the "vanguard" paradigm and for those who still think in 
those terms, I only try to remind them that they should respect the list 
ecology.





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