[Marxism] Cockburn on 9/11 conspiracy nuts; anti-plot discussion getting nuttier

["Charles Brown" <cbrown@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Loupaulsen 



- - -
Me again:
Possibly you missed my earlier post in which I affirmed that the bourgeois
state does engage in conspiracies.  Of course it does.  Routinely.  But I
don't think it engages in the SORT of conspiracies that people are talking
about when they charge that the US government put cruise missiles in the WTC
and the Pentagon, made passenger planes disappear, and smuggled truckloads
of explosives into the WTC to blow them up.  There is a big difference
between stuff like this and conspiracies involving lies, frame-ups, killing
people overseas, and so forth, and I mean a big difference in terms of what
the bourgeoisie itself will consider doing and what they can get their
agents to do.  Dick Cheney is not a cuddly guy, but I don't think he's a
mystical superhuman super-evil supervillain out of Batman comics - this is
thinking about Cheney the same way THEY want us to think about Osama bin
Laden.

^^^^
CB: You left out that with respect to 9/11 , they could have had a report
ahead of time and didn't act to stop it, the most non-sensational version.
Why'd you do that ? Because it doesn't fit with characterizing plot
speculators as irrational and not sober ?
You are getting a bit whacky in suggesting that I think that Cheney is
"mystical superhuman super-evil supervillain out of Batman comics ".- 

^^^^^

You and Andy Austin both seem to believe that the bourgeoisie is likely to
do just ANYTHING at any time.

^^^
CB; I'd say you would like us to seem to say that, but I ( and I don't think
Andrew) think that. What the bourgeoisie will do is anything in their
interest that they can very likely get away with .  I'd say most of the
above you describe would be too risky for them in that they are likely to
get caught.  There has to be plausible deniability for them to do it. 

^^^^^

  This is the same thing as saying that you
have no predictive model of the bourgeois state at all. 

^^^^^
CB: Now you are well into a strawperson discussion since I haven't said
anything anywhere near your premise to the above,nor your inference about
the unpredictability of the bourgeois state. 

The predictive model is the bourgeois will do anything they can get away
with; like lie about W'sMD in Iraq and then attack them based on what
somebody else did on 9/11.

^^^^^


 When we go to a
demonstration I think that the police might harass us or even arrest us for
parading without a permit, but YOU apparently believe that they may round us
all up and send us all to Guantanamo, or kill us all with Sarin gas, or drop
a tactical nuke on us, because they are evil people and you "don't put
anything past them", to quote Austin. 

^^^^
CB: _I_ don't apparently think any such thing. Are you having dillusions
about what I have said ?

 You apparently are now engaged in the ongoing phenomenon of " anti-9/11
plot" nuts just thinking up the wildest things they can and attributing them
to anybody who doesn't accept the official 9/11 story; like making a
connection between UFO speculation and 9/11 speculation. What's with you
people ? You are really losing it.
^^^^^


 I think we have to strive for better
predictive models of the bourgeois state than that.

^^^^
CB: You aren't "thinking" too clearly, in the sense that you attribute to me
the notion that the bourgeois state is entirely unpredictable. That's a _non
sequitur_ _you_ draw from what I said.

^^^^^

The bourgeois state is not unpredictable and not without limits imposed
among other things by bourgeois ideology as it is operating in a particular
time and place.  

^^^^
CB: It is you who introduced this notion of the unpredictability of the
bourgeois state, not I. You are talking to your own imagination of what I
said.

It is not my position that the bourgeois state is entirely unpredictable.



^^^^^


Yes, the Nazi bourgeois state conducted the Holocaust.  But
it did so against Jews after a long period of oppression and imprisonment
and expropriation and demonization.  It didn't just start murdering millions
of people in 1933.  Bourgeois atrocities are not random and completely
unpredictable events.

Lou 

^^^^^
CB: It's not random nor unpredictable that the current U.S. bourgeois state
might forbear from stopping an attack that would give them the excuse to
start wars they already want to start. You've got it backward. I'm saying it
_is_ predictable that the U.S. state might do that. 




________________________________________________
YOU MUST clip all extraneous text before replying to a message.
Send list submissions to: Marxism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/listinfo/marxism