[Marxism] Challenge to Lenin & Trotsky experts

["Charles Brown" <cbrown@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

 Mark L.
In response to my cautioning against citing Marx as a kind of scriptural
authority, Charles Brown suggests that we should be reading and discussing
what Marx and Marxists wrote.

He has yet to flash the list any evidence that he actually understands the
difference.

^^^^
CB: Correction: I have virtually flooded the list with evidence that I
understand completely the difference. It is that Mark synapses are not
flashing very well and he can't get it.

I don't need to be cautioned against reading Marxist texts as a kind of
scriptural authority, and your saying so is just evidence of your arrogance
, and I must conclude dimwittedness, since you seem to be stuck on it, and
can't tell that what I write evidences very much alive thinking.  

^^^^^^

Much as I share the appreciation of many on the list for faith-based
progressive politics, when I read Charles' assertion that Marxism is a
"science" because Engels says it's so, I'd rather hear that argued.

^^^^
CB: Try substituting the word "materialism" for "science", and you might get
a clue.  Marxism is "historical materialism". By that , Marx and Engels mean
that when you do Marxist examination of history, your attitude is that of a
scientist. Put it this way. Engels has authority to say what Marxism is.  Of
course, Marx and Engels could be lying , and what they write might actually
be religion. But if you think that , you are hopeless. 

As to whether, Engels _knows_ what science is...ha...I have to refer you to
the holy texts, and you can decide for yourself. If you don't think that he
makes clear the distinction or shows how science and materialism developed
among the British, French and German materialists, in struggles with various
religious and idealist thinking, I can't help you. In a few words, it's
looking at things (anything) as they actually are, free of all mystical and
fantastic connections.

Take a look at _Ludwig Feuerbach_ and _Socialism: Utopian and Scientific_,
you jerk.

^^^^^



The floor is yours, Comrade Charles.

Enlighten us as to: (1) what a science is; and, (2) why Marxism is one.

^^^^^^^
CB: "Us" ? You are the main _one_ who needs "enlightenment" on these.  Why
don't you tell me what you think science is ? And if you cite any
authorities, Marxist or bourgeois, that's citing holy text.

Of course , if I reference Marx, Engels or Lenin in trying to get through
your thick skull, you'll popup with "That's religion, not science". You seem
hopeless in this regard. 

Anyway, start out by going over the Marxist definitions and discussions of
"materialism". And you will have to read some of what you ignorantly refer
to as "holy text" to get it. Yes "materialism" and the distinction between
atheism and fideism. That will get you right to the fundamental difference
between science and religion. 

In science, there is no God, or no need of that hypothesis, to explain the
matter to be explained. This is one elementary reason that citing Marxist
text is not citing holy text. Marxism doesn't have God in it (duh).  

But you want to make the tired old redbaiting claim that thoughtlessly and
uncritically citing Marxist texts is _like_ treating it as religion. But
there you have it, I _don't_ thoughtlessly or uncritically cite those texts.
You're just stuck on stupid in reading what I write, and you can't tell that
my use and thought about Marxist texts is very thoughtful and alive. Also,
once it has been established that Marx ,Engels or Lenin's writing still has
pertinence in general to what is going on today, there is no need to prove
that everytime. Presumably, people on a Marxist list know that. That's why
we have a Marxism list, so we don't have to go over basics constantly.  I'm
not going to sit up here and prove it everytime just for you because you
don't think it's shown or that I've shown it. That's your problem. Who the
hell are you ?  You sound like a broken record or a monk reciting a mantra.
I'm just going to hurl insults back at you everytime you hurl them at me to
emphasize the point: "You dullard, Mark Lause. You can't even tell that I
read Marxism thinkingly."



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