[Marxism] Marxist characterzation of U.S. Confederacy as "conspiracy"

["Charles Brown" <cbrown@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Excerpt: So, Mark, you don't think that Marx and Engels' discussion of a
historical topic is fundamentally different than non-Marxist discussions of
same, even earlier ones ?  In what consists your "Marxism" , assuming you
consider yourself a Marxist ,and that's not attributing to you a religious
orientation ?

^^^^^^

Mark Lause

For years leading up to secession, Republican politicians talked about "the
Slave Power Conspiracy."  That's why Marx and Engels and other European
progressives talked about it in such terms.

So, this isn't a "Marxist characterization."

^^^^
CB: Yes it is: per se, straight from the horse's mouth.

^^^^

 I don't know if Charles Brown
is really as disinterested as he sounds in reading anything other than Holy
Writ.

^^^^
CB: Wonder if Mark L.'s really so out of it,
    To think his tired trope of "Holy Writ" ,
    Is anything approaching half-a-wit :>)
^^^^^


However, I am waiting to read that he has just read "India" in a work by
Marx and Engels and wishes to announce that Marx and Engels were the first
to discuss the country.

^^^^
CB: Yes, and let me remind you not to hold your breath.

 I'm waiting for Mark, here on a Marxism list, to indicate he thinks Marx
and Engels discussing a subject is any different than _lots_ of others
discussing it, whether they were the first or thousandth to do so.

You treat, say a discussion of India from a thousand years ago, as on a par
with Marx's discussion because the former came before the latter ?

You don't think that Marx and Engels' discussion of a historical topic is
fundamentally different than non-Marxist discussions of same, even earlier
ones ?  In what consists your "Marxism" , assuming you consider yourself a
Marxist ,if that's not attributing to you a religious orientation ?

^^^^

Meaning depends on context.  There were other people reading and speaking at
the time.  Marx and Engels read them.  It's not only worthwhile trying to
understand that but I don't think you can actually access Marx and Engels
without context.

^^^^
CB:  Good point, but in this case "conspiracy" has substantially the same
meaning as in today's context of "conspiracy theory" ,etc.

^^^^^^

As to whether or not it was a "conspiracy" depends on what you mean by "it."

Secession, no.  The official buildup to secession.  They were holding
conventions and publishing their manifestos and whatnot.  No secrets there.

^^^^

CB: In terms of historical context, there was something of a propaganda
contest, as we might expect. The Confederates , whatever level of secrecy,
wanted to justify to and curry favor for the secession from Europeans of
various sorts in order to get support. Our original historical materialists,
who aren't at all writing holy writ, but are giving us an example of
historical materialist writing, uniting theory with practice, undertake to
counter pro-Confederacy propaganda, and so attribute ulterior motives to the
South, in order to help prevent European support for the South. Get it ?
Historical materialism, Marxism, is not just theoretical or descriptive
analysis but practice in historical context. They are trying to influence
events , not just describe them _sang froid_

^^^^^^^^


Aspects of this operation was a different matter.  The raising of private
Contra armies for filibustering in the 1850s or sending to Kansas required
organization and there are lots of indications from the period that this was
done by societies like the Blue Lodges or the Knights of the Golden Circle.

^^^^
CB; Proving the descriptive accuracy  of Marx and Engels use of the term
"conspiracy"...as well as the similarity of context with today's usage.


^^^^

Finally--on the general question of "conspiracy theories"--the term is as
meaningless as the accusation of conspiracy.  Let's see the evidence....

Solidarity!
Mark L.

^^^^^
CB: Yes, I agree that "conspiracy theories" is a meaningless , overused term
right now.  Gee, you have one clue !

Glory, Glory, Hallelujuh !



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