Re: [Marxism] England Football Supporters

["Ian Pace" <ian@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

From: <Jscotlive@xxxxxxx>

[Earlier comment in the thread from JD]: 'In comparison the African and
South American fans bring joy and celebration  to the game. In fact there is
a marked difference between the behaviour of fans  from the undeveloped
world and those from the developed world as a  whole. '

> dergunov2005@xxxxxxx writes:
>
> > But
> > of course the nature of this angryness is quite different, it's not
> > shauvinistic, but is born by oppression.
>
> Reply:
>
> Yes, definitely. There can be no moral equivalent between the nationalism
> of
> an oppressor nation/people and the nationalism of an oppressed
> nation/people.
To look at this in a wider sense - I wonder if this isn't a problematic line
of thought, though, to speak per se of 'an oppressed nation/people', as it
rather whitewashes class differences (and others to do with gender,
ethnicity, etc.) within such a 'nation/people'? Anti-imperialist nationalism
is frequently appropriated by the ruling classes of the oppressed nation
(though I accept it is often an inevitable strategy for fighting
imperialism).

But in the case of football, talking in such generalised terms about African
or South American football supporters bringing 'joy and celebration to the
game' seems romantic idealisation which is not a little patronising, even
close to African/South American para-'orientalism', when expressed from a
Western viewpoint.

Also, the English working classes are oppressed people as well. To explain
away their attachment to their team as 'an attachment to Empire and
imperialism which pervades the English working class, resulting in a
national chauvinism which allows British governments to continue to engage
in imperialist military  adventures to this day and get away with it' is too
easy and a bit of a cop-out. The attraction of nationalism to the working
classes is a powerful force that we as Marxists have to deal with somehow -
holding our hands up in despair and contempt won't get us anywhere.

Solidarity,
Ian



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