[Marxism] Energy

[dwalters@xxxxxxxxxxxx]

An interesting discussion brewing again.

I've never heard of hemp as an energy source except as bio-mass...burning it
like wood: very polluting, lot's of particulate pollution etc. Hemp's promise
is in it's versatility as a fiber (textiles, paper, filters, etc).

I think Anthony centered this discussion best when he pointed out that the
promise of ethonol is not it being cheap (abliet it is right now, by about $1
USD per gallon cheaper than gasoline, then again one needs about 30% more of it
to go the same distance that a gallon of gas does). It's that one doesn't need
oil if one uses ethonol in vehicles, even if the total energy conusmption per
mile is much greater, it misses the point on why countries go to alchohol.

ETHANOL:
Vehicular usage is the only usage that makes sense for ethanol, even if it uses
more energy to make it, so long as that energy isn't oil, one is kind of a head
of the game. However, the other issues Louis has raised, meaning the huge
ecological effect of turning half the US into corn fields (necessary for
changing over completely to ethanol). The problem is that what energy are they
using to make it? Most of the ethonol plants in the US use natural gas. If we
used NG powered cars, that is using the NG directly, we wouldn't need the added
expense of using it to make ethanol...what's the point? This is what Argentina
has done, converting a large % of their vehicle fleet to NG. From a compressor
station right into your car.QED.

CUBA:
Right now, from what I've read, Cuba is planning to burn OIL to make ethonol and
some bio-mass, usually sugar-cane remnents in the fields. It's hard to imagine
the Cubans using their 100,000 barrel-a-day imports from Venezuela to make
60,000 barrels of ethanol when they can use the same oil to make 85,000 barrels
of gasoline. But, I'm sure they have their reasons and a rational way to do
this. (most oil is used to make electricity there, I was just using the figure
as an example based on their actual imports of oil but I actually expect to see
an *increase* in oil imports to Cuba as ethanol use increases).

SOLAR:
Bonnie suggests it would be cheaper in a post-capitalist society to use solar.
Well, yes I suppose. Indeed, most things would be, maybe. But solar right now,
is more expensive than anything on a kilowatt-prt-hour basis. That is why it has
to be totally subsidized up the wazoo for it to work, even California's
residential Grid Integrated Photo Voltalics (GIPV)program which is the biggest
application of solar residential usage in the US, if not the world. I'm all for
it, but it costs tax payers money and so cost-per-KWH is high. Solar can't be
used in vehicles unless one is using it to charge an electrical car battery for
an all-electric vehicle. If the US switched over tomorrow to all-electric
vehicles, vehicle pollution would end, but an increase use of power plant
produced electricity would ensue, albeit power plant electricity is very
efficient (now approaching 60% for some gas turbines). But it means using up
limited natural gas...and more coal, which as it got more expensive, solar
(and, nuclear) becomes cheaper. Hmmm...intersting.

FANTASY STUFF:
All this touches on some fantasy scenerios. If society had limitless energy, all
vehicles would run on hyrdrogen. There would be no other vehiclular fuel source.
None. The oil and gas industry LOVES hyrdrogen (h2) because it takes tons of
natural gas to make h2 (the process involves spraying superheated steam through
NG which cracks the h2 out of the NG molecule). That is why you seen Bush
touting h2 usage. But if we had, say, tons of nuke plants (no, really) and
billions of gigawatts of solar, tital and wind we can use electrolosis to crack
h2 from water. But h2, like ethanol, are 'bridge/transport' energy tools, not
energy sources themselves.

At some point we need to shoot for the fantasy model and look for limitless
power where we can use 10x the power to make 1x power that is usable in
automobiles, trucks, planes and trains.

David

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