[Marxism] Delicatessan

[dwalters@xxxxxxxxxxxx]

Calvin, I give you a lot of credit for raising this issue.

In the "old socialist movement", the SPA of the pre-1920 period, vegetarianism
was sometimes discussed. It looking at old issues of the NY Call, the daily SP
paper, where, if I remember correctly, I saw several advertisements for forums
on this subject.

While never a big issue, it was at times discussed, at least terms of forums and
classes.

First, let me disagree with one thing. Most vegetarians I know on the left
(broadly speaking) are so because of health reasons. At least the ones I know
in the United States, which, since this list is composed mostly on
non-USonians, I feel compelled to point out.

There simply is no arguement against this, but rarely is it ever going to
convince someone like me, a red-meat eater (about 3 times a week) but an
"animial protien" cosumer 7 days a week (fish, chicken, lamb, etc). I'm an avid
fisherman so going out, catching my own rock cod or salsmon, consuming same is
never going to end for me.

Interestingly, even in India, that there are virtually no vegetarian cultures
that developed among coastal peoples where fish was abundent. Most vegetarian
cultures that developed there migrated there, but developed some place else.

I would argue that some on whose diet consists mostly of consuming protein from
sea life easily live as long as those that are vegans or abstain from eating
animal protein.

I would argue too that those that limit, but do not abstain totally from eating
animal protein, limiting their intake to fish and fowl, live a lot longer than
those that combine or restrict their animal protein to red meat (pork, lamb,
beef).

Vegetarians, it seems, do live longer than non-Vegetarians. However, they don't
necessarily live THAT much longer, a few years, it seems, at best. They
probably FEEL better and have fewer other ailments, but not necessarily live a
lot longer. I think you concede this point in your essay on this, and I'm glad
you admit this, because the health-driven vegetarians (usually not vegans) are
completely irrational about this. I say "You've won the arguement! Now, let me
eat in peace...!

Human society, affluent and poor, productive and not-so-productive, mostly
evolved eating animals: raising them, hunting them, etc. It is part of our
'natural' make up, and why we think it tastes good, is good for us, can't do
without it. I'm not sure why we should change this. Is biology the human
destiny? No, of course

I agree about the hypocracy of someone willing to partake in a nice, well
seasoned pork chop but recoils at partaking in a taste of our canine friends.
Well, that partly answers it, dogs *always* played a different social role than
animals purposely bred for food. The same is true for horses, btw, albeit less
so. I've tasted both dog and horse (and various diriviatives of the latter:
donkey/burro and mule. Like dog, if any one cares, they seem to have the same
texture as goat, if you've had that, but slightly tougher, and, without the
flavor of 'kid'. Where I work, we sent out for goat 'chivo' burritos which is
popular in some of the Mexican delicatessans in the SF-Bay Area. Very little
fat and because it's roasted as opposed to fried, it's healthier for you. Lamb
remains my favorite red meat, something I was brought up on (but, never in a
burrito!).

The moral arguement. You did not make one so we can discuss that later. These
days, however, there is a huge arguement against the large US inspired and
inveted commerical protein industry. The fact that I can by a chicken for 80
cents a pound means that they are raised in little bitty cages fed exactly what
they need, etc. etc. Hormone injections, anti-biotic pollution, etc are all
arguements I concede to myself. They are bad. We should stop and even before
the advent of socialism, we ought to try to do something about it.

Poor folks. You seem to imply that the poor are generally more inclined toward
vegetarianism if only because of cost. But meat is cheap, very cheap, and thus
poor, especially in the US, probably eat more meat that the 'middle classes'.
Poor people eat fat for calories. That's a European, South American and North
American aspect of capitalism. When I first met my wife, she was living in a
converted garage with 11 other of her family members. Feeling the war in
Nicaragua, they eat totally fried beef strips (usually flank steak) *every
day*. Once in a while her grandfather would splurge, got to the pet store about
5 blocks a way, purchase a rabbit (one of those big white fluffy ones) and we'd
have bar-b-qued canejo. But beef everyday. They couldn't get it at all in
Nicaraqua. Now that they have more money and regular jobs, are here legally and
all, they don't eat so much. Interesting I'd say.

Cuba. When I was in Cuba back in the 80s, the Cuban gov't, which has thought a
lot about this question, has tried to wean the Cuban people away from beef.
They produce beef, most of it was exported (a real complaint then, BTW, but a
lot of Cubans) for dollars, so they eat pork. Or did, it's been a while. They
ate tons of pork and when I got there, pork itself was no longer even rationed.
You could purchase as much as you wanted. No wonder Cuba's pharmacutical
industry excels in the production of anti-clorestoral medicnes. What they
WANTED to do was to get Cubas to eat FISH! Some of the richest fishing in the
world surrounds Cuba. They even harvest thousands of tons a year, but most of
it is exported to Europe, because Cuban's won't eat the stuff.

So, I'd conclude that even with a change of property relations, human culture
has aways to go before it really considers vegetarianism as a serious
alternative to eating meat. There will always be two P.E.T.As: 1. People for
the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and 2. People Enjoying Tasty Animals.

David Walters



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