[Marxism] Re: Gay Discussion on Marxmail

[Brian Shannon <Brian_Shannon@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

[My apologies for any grammatical errors; I tend to make a lot because 
I start and stop to revise; in this case, I have to rush to work, but 
wanted to put in my last points at least for a few hours. I tried to 
make my post clear by starting Adam’s comments with a caret and then 
putting two line spaces between segments]

>And here, in a nutshell, is your strawman. Again, you ignore the 
portion of Walter’s email that deals with the progress Cuba has made on 
gay rights.

Did I? I thought that I solidarized myself with these remarks. At least 
that’s what I wrote. Of course, you can say that I didn’t, but my words 
give you the answer.


>Again, you trumpet this bizarre “should I wait until after the 
hurricane before criticizing Cuba” bit as if Walter has somehow 
suggested that you do. It’s not the case, it’s not even CLOSE to the 
case, it’s simply a strawman.

Well, maybe Walter didn’t suggest that I do, but he did suggest that 
some people “Alas, [have no] interest [in recent catastrophic events 
because] gay issues are the most important ones facing humanity.”

And frankly, although Walter was not initially replying to me, I want 
to join any that think that “the most important ones (issues) facing 
humanity” are not immediate aid, but the imperialist system. Needless 
to say, and I hope that you don’t misinterpret me the way have on my 
earlier posts, the reaction to catastrophe by Cuba and the United 
States, and other countries is a dynamic part of that system. We don’t 
dissolve the current crises into an amorphous opposition to capitalism.


>I summed up the point in my last post, and I shall do so again here:

>1. Cuba has made enormous strides in gay rights. 2. That, and Cuba’s 
current response to the hurricane, is much more important to evaluate 
than some comment about the Pope.

>Full stop. Anything else you put in there is purely of your own 
imagination.

I put nothing else in there at all. That I did “is purely of your own 
imagination.”  However, I don't see what "more important" has to do 
with it, unless O'Brien should merely applause from San Francisco. 
However, he is probably part of a political group which is 
participating in responses to things on the ground where he is. What 
else do you expect him to do?


>> BTW, why did Castro invite the Pope?

>Well, off the top of my head, I can think of two reasons:

>1. The vast majority of Cubans are Catholic. 2. He’s a powerful world 
leader.

Well, we disagree here too. Castro invited the Pope to give him 
leverage for the Cuban Revolution. I don’t think that Castro has any 
other reason at all.


>> Shouldn’t he have stopped absolutely everything else to help 
organize hurricane, flood, and  earthquake relief? In fact he did all 
of these. I assume that O’Brien   and others do many other things as 
well. But if they have special knowledge to contribute on this question 
and, yes, special  indignation,  why should their comments be so 
denigrated?

>Because that “special indignation” is largely unwarranted, and the 
entire Pope episode is largely irrelevant. What IS relevant, as Walter 
pointed out, is what Cuba’s actually doing on the ground. Not minor 
diplomatic issues--so Fidel invited the Pope. Big, fat, hairy, deal.

You missed my sarcasm regarding Castro’s invitation to the Pope or 
ignored it. Here it is again. If the Pope can take time out to not only 
invite the Pope, bur allegedly say that he has the “face of an angel,” 
why can’t O’Brien take time out from important work that he may be 
doing.

Let’s add that it it was Walter who posted this information. O’Brien 
commented on it. You should have been able to tell from what I wrote, 
that I have a slightly different slant on its importance. In fact, like 
you, I also put its importance down and pointed out that it should only 
be taken as an astute example of Castro’s political savvy. But, as I 
point out above, I believe that it was done for the Cuban Revolution. 
If it wasn’t but because Cubans are Catholic and the Pope is powerful, 
then we really are in trouble.

However, we may be saying the same thing. That is to say, Castro 
invited the Pope because he wanted to use a powerful world leader as 
leverage for the Cuban Revolution and this was, of course, justified 
because the majority of Cubans are Catholic.

Or not. You may have to argue with Walter regarding their Catholicity.


>What IS important is the ACTUAL lives of gay Cubans. What IS important 
is the ACTUAL material good that the revolution does. Not diplomatic 
relations with the Pope, China, Russia, or whatever.

First of all, “diplomatic relations with the Pope, China, Russia, or 
whatever” clearly are important. Otherwise Castro wouldn’t have taken 
time out to do this. This time I say this without sarcasm. In other 
words, I think that Castro’s actions are very important. So do Walter, 
O’Brien, and others.

The “material good” of the Cuban Revolution is part of the more 
important “ideological good” and diplomatic relations help both. 
Although I may not agree with everything O’Brien says, this is a field 
in which I am not well educated, but I know that he is. I also know 
that it was the activity of people like O’Brien that effected the 
ACTUAL lives of gay Cubans and contributed to their material good.

Brian Shannon


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