Re: [Marxism] Greens, Dems and Building Working Class Independence,

["Carlos A. Rivera" <cerejota@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Lause" <MLause@xxxxxxxxxxxx>

> What will persuade the still unpersuaded (who are at all persuadable)
> will be action and movement.  And this process in the material world has
> a pace quite independent from the more prayerful incantations.

C'mon Mark, a tautology doesn't a truth make.

Who makes you think we are not political realists in that we don't embrace
the Greens as the vehicle that will transfrom into a real left wing party?

Again, this is verbatim the same argument that the DSA, CPUSA and others
make to remain in the Democratic Party. As a matter of fact, someone left
this list in disgust recently after vehemently arguing for support

This is ludicrous. Whenever Marxists engage themselves in political activism
within structures that are not marxist, history has shown that the only ones
who survive unscrathed are the ones that don't retain one iota of illusion
on a structure bneyond what it deserves.

The Green Party, in the period between 1996 and 2000 certainly demonstrated
a certain vitality, and a certain focus that made it attractive as a place
to develop socialist ideas.

But in the end, its base, being militant liberals and being really
disaffected Democrats (ie not having really made a clean break with the ide
that the Democrats are a left party), end up buying the whole "spoiler"
bullshit from the DNC, and abandoned it in throves in 2004.

That is the objective reality. Face it. This is not 1998. This is 2005. The
Greens have imploded, and hence it is time for the next thing. I mean, even
in California it is made redundant by the P&J.

Again, I make an appeal for serious discussion, not for tired old
denounciations of phantasmagorical "sectarians". Neither David nor myself
are that particular type of sectarian, so answering to us in that manner is
a non-answer.

I am willing to bet that if we saw some practical political future in the
Greens both as a challenge to Democratic hegemony of the left and as a
vehicle capable of engaging in a working class oriented
transitional/reformist program, we would both support it, even if it meant
joining forces with militant liberals.

That is not the focus of our critique.

The focus of our critique is that the Greens are weakened by the fact they
are simply just another pressure group on the Democrats, a leaderless
splinter.

And the problems it has faced are stem for this fact.

Marxist are closer, in term of political culture to Lincolnian Republicanism
than to Clintonian New Democraticism, and the Greens are essentially a bunch
of Democrats who felt that Clinton backstabbed them in 1992-1996, not a
movement commited for the long term struggle required to build a real party
that challenges both republicans and democrats from the left.

Sure, there are individuals in the Green Party who are not like that, but
even Nader ran out to run *his* campaing and not the Party's when the time
came.

sks


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