[Marxism] Venezuela's Hugo Chavez on Colombia (full transcript)

["Walter Lippmann" <walterlx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

This is the complete transcript of Chavez' remarks about
Colombia. Thanks to the Cuban Mission to the UN for this.)
=========================================================

IMPORTANT STATEMENTS MADE BY HUGO CHÁVEZ FRÍAS ON THE ALÓ
PRESIDENTE PROGRAM, FROM MIRAFLORES PALACE, ON JANUARY 16,
2005, TAKING UP THE CURRENT CONFLICT WITH COLOMBIA SPARKED
OFF BY IMPERIALISM AND THE NEW SOCIAL MISSION BARRIO

ADENTRO II.

On the conflict with Colombia

Now, to follow up on the question of South American
integration, I want to take up the issue of Colombia. 
I know there are expectations in that country, in both
countries, in Colombia and Venezuela, and the problem which
arose this month, well, it already had an impact, as one
could only expect, on Latin America and other parts of the
world, on various governments and international
institutions that have been expressing their concerns. And
they are justified in their concern over this problem
having to do with a crime that has been committed, that is
the heart of the question.

I want to take up the issue on today?s program, on Aló
Presidente, from the point of view of integration because
after thinking long on the matter, having read about the
facts which led up to the crime, after having found out the
details, as I have been doing, hour after hour,
investigating ?and we?re investigating things thoroughly
here? the events leading up to the crime, how it happened,
how it infringes on Venezuelan sovereignty; awaiting, at
all times, the response or the reaction of sister Colombia,
keeping abreast of the opinions expressed by different
political and economic sectors in Venezuela and Colombia;
attentive to the opinions coming from other countries of
the Americas, from the American continent especially, well,
I have been taking in information, processing it, dredging
up the patience needed to address the problem, a problem
which has produced ?there?s no doubt about it ?a crisis, a
crisis, we cannot deny it, we have to call a spade a spade.
There is a crisis at the moment.

To begin with, both governments, Colombia?s and Venezuela?s
government must recognize this, must recognize the truth. I
am always making the effort, in the welter of information
that I receive, to grasp, to get to the truth, the essence
of truth, and to hold on to it, to the truth, and to push
aside any other bit of rubbish, any confusing element; I
always try to identify these elements, first and foremost,
and treat them and all misinformation, half-truths, all
beating around the bush accordingly, so as to cling to the
central core of truth, the truth, and to act in accordance
with the truth.

Now, the integration of Latin America. Having thought about
this process long, I being informed, and having analyzed
the matter and exchanged views with others, I have no doubt
in my mind that this act is part of a conspiratorial
strategy aimed at impeding the integration, not only of
Colombia and Venezuela, but also the process of integration
which has been gathering strength recently, especially in
the last few months, in Latin America, in the Caribbean
and, especially, in South America. I haven?t the slightest
doubt that we are facing a plot, another one, an element of
a strategy that is very old, you know, very, very old.

When Simón Bolívar proposed the idea of the Congress of
Panama, they started to call him crazy, they started
poisoning the mind of Santander in Bogotá, the mind of Páez
in Caracas and those of other leaders; the international
campaign to discredit Bolívar got underway in Europe, and
it succeeded to some extent. This is why Bolívar dies
saying that phrase, Bolívar?s last words, every word has to
be read and analyzed carefully, because they are a dying
man?s words, he was pouring his soul into them, he didn?t
want to take anything to the grave, I suppose. And he had
almost given up the ghost when he wrote that ?it wasn?t a
decorative phrase meant to embellish a speech, it was his
naked soul which was captured and etched forever on that
piece of paper: ?My enemies took advantage of your
credulity and trampled on what is most sacred, my
reputation? ?they trampled on it? ?and my love of freedom?.
They started to attack Bolívar in Europe, an international
campaign claiming he aspired to become king or emperor got
underway. And he was the first to oppose this idea but,
well, if you repeat a lie a hundred times, that ideologue
of Nazi propaganda, Goebbels, would say years later, it
becomes truth.

So, many people in Europe and many ordinary people and
people of good faith, even friends of Bolívar ended up
believing that he aspired to be king or emperor Simón
Bolívar.

It is an old strategy: we believe in unity and others in
division, in keeping us divided, in accentuating our
differences, in causing problems between us, in impeding
the true unification of South America; it is a strategy, I
haven?t the slightest doubt. And when the Ambassador of the
United States to Bogotá came out and said what he said just
a few hours ago, it became clear as water, ladies and
gentlemen.

So, again, I call on someone who I consider a friend,
because I don?t believe all the meetings we?ve had, all of
the times we have shaken hands, all of the private
conversations we?ve had and thoughts we?ve shared, all of
the times we have sincerely overcome our differences, I
don?t believe any of this was in any way put on, President
Uribe. I call, let me repeat, on someone who I consider a
friend; let?s say that, in the last months of 2003, my
respect for President Uribe has grown.

I remember that visit he paid us in Maracaibo during the
preparations for the referendum. He was even attacked by
some spokesmen who questioned his coming to Venezuela, who
asked themselves if he came in support of Chávez; and,
well, he proved very objective and, what?s more, we started
to talk about some very exciting projects, the gas pipeline
?could you put the map on the screen, please, to explain
the importance of this draft agreement we had reached? a
gas pipeline running from La Guajira in Colombia to La
Guajira in Venezuela.

>From the time we took office, Venezuela has been pushing
for integration with Colombia, regardless of differences
and beyond circumstances and criticisms, none of that
matters to us. We have said what Sancho Panza said to Don
Quixote: ?If the dogs are barking, that is because we are
riding along?. We made a huge effort. President Uribe even
invited me, I couldn?t see him and regretted it immensely,
I called him on the phone, and we sent a vice-minister of
energy. We were busy with other things and the invitation
reached me with but a few days? notice. I did everything I
could, but I really was unable to attend, here in Puerto
Carreño, here in this lovely little corner, a very
beautiful place, where the Meta river, the Meta river comes
from the very heart of Colombia and joins the Orinoco, here
in Puerto Carreño, Puerto Páez . (He points it out on the
map.)

After intense work that was not to make profits for
Venezuela, we?re supplying them with electricity at fairly
generous prices, a reliable and clean source of energy,
generated by the hydroelectric plant in Guri, from the
plant in Guayana to Puerto Carreño. Puerto Carreño had no
electricity, it had a number of old, gas oil plants, like
the ones in Sabaneta, I imagine, that were switched on
every night by the much-remembered friend Mauricio Herrera;
at night, in the afternoon, he would ride by on his
bicycle, every afternoon, Rosa Inés Chávez, God rest her
soul, and I were sitting there by the parapet of the old
house when Mauricio rode by on his bicycle. The electrical
plant was about 100 meters away, there in La Laguna, where
a huge lake formed in the winter. Don Mauricio would turn
the plant on and later, at around 9:00 at night, he would
go by again, one already knew why: ?They?re going to turn
the plant off?, it was an electrical plant, a number of
plants, a system of electrical plants, that Puerto Carreño
had.

In my last conversation with President Uribe, I said to
him: ?We also want to help?? Because here, in the South,
more to the South (pointing to the map), near the border
with Colombia, there are also Colombian towns that have
problems, because they are very far away from generating
plants, from the technology --this map?s also useful, it?s
in a different scale, but it?s also useful ; here, Puerto
Inírida, and these towns here that lie, well, between the
Negro and Orinoco rivers, you can see how far away from
Bogotá and from any generating plant they are, then, I also
said to him: ?We?re going to continue looking into it,
because we?re going to continue installing plants, that is,
hydroelectric plants?. That?s one of the projects we?re
working on.

There?s been enthusiastic talk about a shipping line down
the Meta river, the Orinoco and the Meta rivers. I know the
Meta river, I?ve sailed down the Meta, I would sail through
Cararabo, Buena Vista and Puerto Carreño a lot, on the
Colombian side, when I was captain; on the Venezuelan side,
I would sail through Cararabo and Puerto Páez, capital of
the Pedro Camejo municipality of Apure state.

Recently, I said to Governor Aguilar Tegames of Apure:
?We?re going to analyze the proposal of installing?? Once,
I sent the minister of agriculture to a commission over
there, with the Navy ?I see Maniglia over there?, we?re
talking about a project, a great bi-national project, a
project to sow a great many African palms, which tend to
thrive on the banks of the Meta. This is right on the same
parallel as Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, a palm-oil industry
leader in the world, and you should see all of the things
you can extract from palm oil.

We?ve talked about all of these and about building palm oil
refineries across the immense savannas of the Meta.

We talked with President Uribe about shipping lines and we
said that both of our navies can take this on, and the
Venezuelan navy is already working. Last night, Maniglia, I
was actually looking over the proposal for a shipping line
down the Meta that Admiral Laguna gave me and seeing the
obstacles these ships will encounter; we?ve been making
technical efforts, investing some money but, above all,
we?ve been pouring time and the experience of our naval
officers into this project.

Just now, in Peking, I held talks with the Chinese
government about the proposal to construct a multipurpose
pipeline here. You know there is a lot of natural gas in
Venezuela, both in the eastern banks of the Paraguaná and
in the Gulf of Venezuela and soon, this very month, this
process will be underway, and we?re going to issue the
first prospecting licenses.

Venezuela has the largest natural gas reserves in the
entire continent.

Two nights ago, the president of one of the largest gas
companies in the world, the Russian GazProm, was in
Venezuela and we signed a strategic alliance agreement for
all of these gas-related projects, both in the mainland and
off shore.

Well, there?s also talk of a multipurpose pipeline, it?s
not a bad idea, to pipe gas, fuel and oil derivates along
Colombia?s Atlantic coast, the Hacha river, Barranquilla,
Cartagena, all of that ?Santa Marta is missing here? and to
connect it with Central America.

There?s enough natural gas in Venezuela to meet the needs
of all of these nations that need it so badly for
development.

We?ve also talked about bi-national projects here in Alto
Apure. The gas pipeline, the preliminary study is at an
advanced stage, the first line ?the pencil hasn?t turned
up, Andrés?? around here, around this area. Colombia has a
number of natural gas reserves, and the first study we
conducted, I even participated directly in this, paying
special attention to it, because President Uribe requested
this, and we began to study, the first project was to bring
a gas pipeline to Maracaibo, to the eastern bank, where the
petrochemical industry is.

There?s enough gas here, in Colombia, for 5 or 7 years, and
we want to pipe this gas here, even if it is not
indispensable for us, because you know that we are carrying
the IGCO (West-Central Gas Interconnection) project
forward; that is to say, western Venezuela has energy
shortages because of a lack of strategic vision, a vision
and strategy that did not exist ?now they do?; but, well,
in spite of the fact that we have this project to pipe gas
to Paraguaná and spare Zulia the task of having to
transport gas to Paraguaná, we decided to undertake this
project.

They say the second proposal that Minister Ramírez brought
me following meetings with Colombian and PDVSA technicians
is much better, and this is what I personally told
President Uribe at the last meeting we had in Cartagena de
Indias. I told him, map in hand: ?Alvaro, they tell me that
it?s better to build it directly to Paraguaná, that it?s
less costly?; here, it would have to cross the Maracaibo
lake and it would cost less. So, we then decided to press
the play button, as they say, to give the project the green
light.

It's also a bi-national and bi-directional project, because
when the gas deposits that Colombia has there are used up,
these being quite small, it would be used for a very
specific gas-supply arrangement for about five years,
employing the same pipeline in the opposite direction.
That's where the idea of a gas pipeline for all this comes
from.

We even spoke to President Torrijos of Panama, because all
the Central American countries need energy and we could
easily interconnect from Mexico with a gas pipeline for all
that.

Venezuela has enough potential to make this more than a
pipe dream; it's not castles in the air; all this is
possible ?a real, concrete integration of our peoples.

As regards bilateral relations. They improved a lot in
2004: the visits by president Uribe, my visits to Colombia,
the phone calls; on January 2nd we spoke on the telephone
about the next meetings. President Uribe told me he wanted
to see the Venezuelan plains. I called him from the plains
and he told me: "I want to see your country, Chavez". I
don't think this was feigned interest or anything like
that. I told him: "The door is open here, Mr. President".

You'll remember that a campaign began when President Uribe
took office, the first meeting, I remember the headlines:
"They're to meet, but they're chalk and cheese", and it
isn't like that, it isn't like that: we want to work
together and discuss the problems and differences, not to
avoid them in any way.

Then in December, the Colombian defense minister came to
Caracas. I couldn't see him, I was out of the country; he
met with the Vice President, and our defense minister of
course, to discuss issues, to ask for clarification, to
explain and confirm our convictions, our guidelines,
because what we want is to build peace, not support war. We
love Colombia, we hurt for Colombia, we love Colombia a
great deal, and we think of ourselves as one people, with
one history, one soul.

Now when these things happen, some international observers
look askance, some don't like this, including some in
Colombia and some here in Venezuela; for them it's a
disaster. Those who are constantly saber-rattling, the
hawks, those on the far right in Bogota and Caracas, some
elements of the media who have always stirred divisions,
who have always been behind anti-Venezuelan sentiment in
Colombia and anti-Colombian attitudes in Venezuela, the war
dogs, the hegemonic element in the Americas and the world,
they don't like what they are seeing. The ones who want to
keep us at loggerheads, that work to keep us divided, are
not pleased to witness these sincere, open contacts, just
as they will frown on our friendship with Brazil and always
try to sow the seeds of discord between the leaders. "Lula
and Chavez cold-shoulder each other" they said once. "Lula
and Chavez don't see eye to eye". Lies, all lies! But they
use the slightest thing to cause a rift, or create a storm
in a teacup.

So the progress we make, what we've achieved right now in
Cuzco, where all the South American presidents signed the
document giving birth to the South American Union of
Nations, the South American Community of Nations in which
Colombia and Venezuela will have a significant part to
play, does not sit well with our continent's hegemonic
element. The oligarchies that have dominated these peoples,
that have exploited these peoples, take a dim view of all
this. They don't want us to unite. I have no doubt that
these sectors are the breeding ground for the conspiracy to
drive a wedge between Venezuela and Colombia, to separate
us, to see our relations deteriorate.

That's why, President Uribe, the press put about that you
is saying, according to the press, I don't know if it's
true, or a spokesman of yours has said in Bogota, that you
were prepared to discuss this topic face-to-face with me at
an international summit. In response to this media report,
I repeat, I can't vouch for its accuracy but I feel bound
to make the following observations:

I think we should both arm ourselves with wisdom, with
patience, to prevent a situation which is the product ?I'm
sure, I repeat? of a conspiracy of hegemonic elements
opposed to integration, who have planned and have carried
out and have then incited, I have no doubt that that's the
way it is ..., we must live up to the sincere aspirations
that arise in the souls of the Colombian and Venezuelan
peoples, to find a way out of this situation.

I certainly do not believe what today's banner headlines in
the Venezuelan, Colombian and international press are
saying that you said, my friend; I certainly do not believe
that this issue should be debated at a summit of heads of
state.

You and I both know what these summits are like. You
yourself were criticizing them, my friend, just recently. I
have always been critical of them in the sense that they
are summits fixed in advance, with a set agenda put
together by the professionals, the foreign ministries, and
by the time we presidents arrive, the documents are already
prepared, the final declarations are already printed and
all we do, usually, is make speeches and have lunch.
Generally I, among others, have always tried to bring up
issues that will invite a debate, as you know, but these
debates are nearly always sidelined or cancelled for lack
of time. Well, lunch is over, so now we must go for the
photo op: in the afternoon, it's time for the picture of
the goodbyes and then us all together. So much for summit
conferences. I've heard you yourself criticizing this
pattern for summits, at one of the latest of the various
gatherings we attended in South America at the end of last
year.

So I don't believe, Mr. President that you thought or said,
as today's headlines in the Venezuelan press have it ...
Have you got the headlines of any Venezuelan papers there?
Please. [They hand him a newspaper]. Ah yes! Look, here it
is in El Nacional ?get the camera on this? the headline
reads "Uribe offers to debate with Chavez face to face at a
summit". No? It seems that the press secretary at the
Nariño Palace was the one who said it.

Incidentally, I should clarify the following: the El
Nacional daily and a few other Venezuelan and Colombian
papers have been getting this and attributing it to
President Uribe, saying he had said it to me in November
2002.

To quote: "If someone in your government" --this is Uribe
to Chavez-- "shelters a Colombian terrorist, I guarantee
you we'll take action and get him out". You can be quite
sure that President Uribe never said this to me, and if he
had, I obviously wouldn't have accepted it. If he'd said
that, the progress we've made in 2003 and especially 2004
would have been impossible. So this is false and President
Uribe should deny it, through whatever channels he pleases,
because it's totally false, not to mention unacceptable
between heads of state.

It's as if I said to a neighbor I'm supposed to be on good
terms with: "Look here, if your boy gets into my garden?"
or something of the sort among the things that happen
between neighbors, "he'll feel my stick on his back!" or, I
don't now, "I'll tie him to a tree". Is that the way to
treat a neighbor who wants to be a good neighbor? Nobody
would accept that. So this is totally false; but still,
they're putting it out, they're putting it out. These are
the elements behind the troublemaking, behind the
hegemonic, imperialist, divisionist interests.

Media like El Nacional in Venezuela lend themselves to
this, and today they publish this story, which wasn't a
statement by President Uribe.

President Uribe, given how important this issue is, I ask
you to clarify whether this is really a proposal of yours,
because I've not had an offer or request of any kind on
these lines, and if one arrived ?it's now vox pop, and
people hear it so often they think it must be true, such is
the power of the media? the answer would be no. No, we must
talk about this, face to face of course; I'd like that. But
the key issue isn't the communiqué the Colombian government
now wants to put center stage. The key issue is not,
President Uribe, as this odd, inexplicable communiqué which
has emerged from the Casa de Nariño or Government House in
Bogota suggests --despite not having been signed by
President Uribe or the Foreign Minister but this is the
voice of the Casa de Nariño, isn?t it? In other words,
behind this there is you, the chief of that establishment
is the one that is speaking, no doubt. It is not, as the
communiqué that we were studying very closely today, point
by point, with Foreign Minister Alí Rodríguez as there will
be a communiqué in reply from the foreign ministry here.
Yesterday, we took our time, so as not to act hastily or
let ourselves be pressured by anything or anybody: clear
heads and straight thinking as far as possible, and a very
calm approach.

So it's strange to read this statement, which tries now to
say or to put at the center of the debate now underway
Washington?s allegation, notably maintained for some time
also by Bogota, that Venezuela has become a sort of
sanctuary for terrorists.

See for yourselves where all this is coming from. What a
coincidence! Editorials in two of the biggest daily
newspapers in the US also attacking Venezuela! Do you see
where all this is coming from? A new anti-Venezuela
campaign has been mounted in Washington, via the main daily
newspapers and US government spokesmen, always the same.
Well, the priest of San Juan de Dios said to his lay
assistant: "You can shake your hips as much as you like,
but your ballast is still there for all to see". The source
of the conspiracy is as clear as day. The US ambassador in
Bogota has already pronounced on the subject, attacking
Venezuela. We have no doubts on that score.

That's why that is not the issue, President Uribe. The
question we must discuss, you and I, face to face as the
Venezuelan press says or personally, as I would rather say,
because "face to face" has connotations of aggression, as
if our meeting was to be in a boxing ring; no, no, between
two heads of state. You told me you wanted to see the
Barinas plains; I invite you to the Barinas plains, and not
because of pressure from anybody, President Uribe. I invite
you for a walk on the savannah, for a dialogue. The key
issue that should be discussed here and that your
government, my friend Mr. President, should recognize, is
that a crime was committed here. That's the problem, that's
the real problem, that's the heart of the matter, isn't it?
The rest can and should be discussed also, but later, it's
secondary. What we are denouncing is backed by evidence to
hand, sufficient evidence, Mr. President; you should not
believe the lies that may reach your ears, just as I not
try not to believe any that come my way.

But Mr. President, I want to tell you the following: a good
friend, someone I now regard as a good friend, ex-President
Samper, while he was president of Colombia he was induced
by lies to believe that Comandante Hugo Chavez, just
released from jail, was organizing training camps for a
guerrilla army (which someone dubbed the 'Gran
Colombiana-Bolivariana') on the Arauca and Meta borders,
and moreover that this Comandante Chavez had led the
assault at Cararabo and had killed Venezuelan soldiers. The
lies of the Colombian intelligence agency with the support
of the Venezuelan intelligence agency made President Samper
believe that farce, which placed him in a very embarrassing
situation. I had to go to Bogota, where I said to him: "OK,
here I am at the mercy of Colombia. Throw me in jail". And
they were going to; but in the end I left, I was there for
three days.

By the way, the Venezuelan government of that time remained
silent, and silence implies consent. There was more or less
a deal between sectors of both nations or both countries to
try to commit political assassination on that Comandante
Chávez, who was roaming about out there like the wandering
Jew, excuse the expression ? someone once said like the
Lone Ranger ? from city to city, street to street in those
years of 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997.

Then President Uribe, if it is really your intention that
we discuss this issue, I accept. However, not in a meeting
with other presidents, no. This is an exclusively bilateral
issue and the heart of the matter, the core that has to be
discussed has to do with the crime that was committed here.

I urge the Colombian government to acknowledge this. The
Colombian government, President Uribe, should not endorse a
crime ?that would be a very serious matter. Machiavelli
once said, ?When facts accuse, results excuse?.

?In the name of the fight against terrorism? they say in
Bogotá. Let us assume that it were so. Are they going to
violate the sovereignty of neighboring countries? Are they
going to incite their citizens and officials to commit
crime? Are they going to launch a campaign to corrupt and
bribe officials, this time it was Venezuelan officials,
tomorrow it could be Brazilian, Ecuadorian, Panamanian, or
those from any other country in the world. No, President
Uribe, you shouldn?t do that. This violates International
Law, this shows disrespect for the sovereignty of other
states, and this makes no contribution to good
neighborliness, to the openness, to the trust that is
essential if we are to undertake those projects. That is
why, until this matter is cleared up, I have ordered a halt
to all the projects we have been working on with Colombia.

We need trust if we are to be able to talk of a gas
pipeline, of electric projects, of palm-oil projects, of
trade projects, etcetera. We need the trust good neighbors
have.

If you, President Uribe knew? That is why I insist. Here,
in the bottom of my heart, I believe that President Uribe
knew nothing of this operation; because a day before Granda
was captured we were together in Cuzco. President Uribe
didn?t go to Ayacucho, but he was in Cuzco on December 8,
in the South America meeting and we spoke there, we talked.
Then he couldn?t go to Ayacucho on December 9 and on
December 10 we were in Maracay, on Air Force Day. Granda
wasn?t caught that day, but that was the day when a group
of Venezuelan police captured a group of Colombian police
operating in our territory. Then three days later Granda
was kidnapped here in Caracas, a kidnapping coordinated by
the Colombian police with the support of a group of
Venezuelan officials, a group of soldiers. Thus far we have
no evidence that any other civilian body was involved and I
have to tell you that right now the Venezuelan soldiers who
were involved in this ?and this is a really deplorable,
really painful thing? are all under arrest and have already
been convicted and have already confessed and have given
details, details, President Uribe, that you should hear.

This is one of the things that I wanted to raise with you,
this is the core of the matter; how did Colombian officials
spend several months bribing Venezuelan officials, inviting
them to commit this crime; how did the Colombian police get
into Venezuela; how much did they pay. We now know how much
they gave them, an advance, they haven?t paid them in full,
they gave them an advance and they bought a car, one of
them bought a car. We even have the car.

If Colombia thinks that the politics of reward is
legitimate, well, no one can take away a state?s freedom to
define politics inside its own territory, but not outside
that territory, not outside its territory and even less can
it bribe another government?s officials behind that
government?s back. No, we can?t have that, which would be
to fall into an abyss.

So, President Uribe, if I there is any truth in what
appears in the press, I would be willing to speak with you
personally, but not about the subject mentioned in the
communiqué from the Casa de Nariño, no; about the crime
that was committed here, and above all, I repeat, the
Colombian government must offer its apologies, because, in
the first place, it must admit that it was in the wrong.

Look, the Colombian police first said that they caught
Granda in Cúcuta, and when people began to ask, ?Well,
where and how did you catch him?? The police generally
leave testimonies, witnesses to these events, generally.
Sometimes they film or record the capture to have reliable
evidence. In this case there were no witnesses, nothing,
and then they contradicted each other. ?No, it was in the
street?, ?No, it was in a hotel? , said another. First they
said no, they had not paid any reward, and then they said
?yes?. They started off by contradicting themselves, which
was what first alerted me, us, until we realized what the
truth was.

Now some thoughts for Venezuela, for Colombia, and for the
world, which is listening to us and watching us with a
great deal of attention here today on Aló Presidente.

Just suppose that the way the Colombian police force
behaved was accepted as legitimate, as valid even. Well,
that would be, as I said, a leap into the abyss, it would
be a step toward the abyss. Why? Because, just imagine that
I at this time know where in Bogotá a Venezuelan terrorist,
a coup supporter, can be found, a man who, in this very
hall, swore himself in as president of this country while I
was a prisoner and while the people of Caracas and of
Venezuela were being massacred. Countless lives were lost
here, wounded, dead, terrorism.

Pedro Carmona is there in Bogotá. Could I then say,
President Uribe, that Colombia is giving refuge to
terrorists? Because you see, if we are going to use it in
that way, so recklessly, I could say that Columbia is
violating the United Nations agreement where it reads that
no state can give refuge to terrorists. Is Pedro Carmona a
terrorist or not? Let us go over what happened here. Yes he
is, we can conclude. But no, I must respect international
law.

That gentleman was a prisoner here but he escaped from his
house; a court had sent him home because of his age and who
knows what else but off he went to the Colombian embassy
and the Colombian government, not Uribe?s government,
Pastrana?s, decided to grant him asylum. As soon as they
told me of Colombia?s decision, even though I did not agree
with it, but Colombia is within its rights, I provided an
airplane in La Carlota and I said: ?Take him to Bogotá?.
And they took him to Bogotá immediately.

Venezuela has always respected international law. I
remember the case of Mr. Ballesta, wanted in Colombia. They
wanted to kidnap him and take him there, we found out and
we prevented them. He was in jail for several months here
for having forged documents. Colombia then did what it
behooved it to do. I remember that I spoke to President
Pastrana and I said: ?President Pastrana, if Colombia has
evidence, any request?? It seems that he had been involved
in hi-jacking a plane, he was indeed involved. Colombia
sent the evidence, the request for extradition, several
months went by, naturally, until Venezuela decided to
accede to the extradition. And as soon as the Supreme Court
of Justice, which is the body here which decides upon
matters of extradition, took its decision, I similarly sent
a plane to take Mr. Ballesta, take him where? To Bogotá,
and they have him in prison there.

The Montesinos case. Do you remember the impasse there was
with the then government of Peru. The Peruvian minister of
the interior landed a military plane in Valencia, they
wanted to take Montesinos. We were then in the midst of a
crisis with the interim government they had in Peru then
before Toledo came on the scene. Well, there was that
Peruvian minister, with a plane, soldiers and all in
Valencia, it was nuts. Nevertheless, for the sake of
fraternity and good neighborliness, I was in Canada at the
Summit of the Americas when I was told, and I said, "Well,
search the plane and then let them take it back to Peru".
So that minister, who was a prisoner inside that plane in
Valencia, was released and went off in the plane to Peru.

"Ah, no, see, Chávez is protecting Montesinos, Chávez has
him hidden away somewhere, Venezuela has become?" We had
only just captured Montesinos here, it was June 24, I
remember, and in two shakes of a lamb's tail he was in
Peru. We have always acted correctly in those matters.

So, if your government, President Uribe, my friend, has
information about the presence here of any Colombian
citizen who is wanted for any reason whatsoever -the person
could be a murderer, could be a criminal of any sort, white
collar, black collar, could be a drug dealer, a terrorist,
a guerrilla- anyone who has a case pending against him or
her in Colombia, well, you have to ask my government for
him or her, ask the Venezuelan state. Suppose that I then
respond by demanding an eye for an eye, which of course I
am not going to do. "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a
tooth" and I start to send commandos and offer millions of
dollars to have Carmona brought to me. Perhaps they will
bring him, because when money is involved -well Judas sold
Christ for a few coins- they begin to offer millions of
dollars and begin to bribe officials and there are people,
unfortunately, who are weak and fall, as those Venezuelans
fell, the surest bet is that they will ruin their careers.
We are going to come down on those officials with the full
force of the law, within the confines of the rule of law.
But no one who lends himself to a crime like this, against
the sovereignty of his own homeland can be a soldier when
the first thing a soldier must hold sacred is his
homeland's sovereignty, they teach us that from our first
year as cadets. But, well, weakness is all around.

A lieutenant colonel that had already given back 10 million
bolivares which he received in Cúcuta? The Venezuelan
lieutenant colonel went over to Cúcuta to hand over the
kidnapped man, he handed him over to a Cúcuta police
commander and received the first part of his money; they
told him they would give him the other half later. And
there are Colombian government officials implicated in
this, civilians and soldiers. This is a crime, President
Uribe, this is a crime, and it can't be allowed to happen.
So, a kidnapping took place, and a kidnapping is a
kidnapping no matter who does it, no matter if the FARC or
the drug traffickers kidnap, no matter if the paramilitary
or Colombian government officials kidnap, it is kidnapping,
with the complicity of Venezuelan officials, kidnapping!
That is a crime and one of the most abhorrent, one of the
most abhorrent.

Just suppose that, right now, I order a commando and offer
millions of dollars to have, for example, some retired
generals, coup plotters, who are in Panama brought here. I
know where they live and everything. Ah, but I spoke to
President Torrijos, I spoke about it with President
Torrijos, like that, as a friend. But I would never do
anything behind Torrijos' back, and if any Venezuelan
official did, well then, I would apply the law to the
Venezuelan. I will never endorse such behavior.

There are three from the pro-coup faction living in the
Dominican Republic, including two of those who were going
to have me shot on the night of April 12, they had me ready
for the grill, as it says in El Llano, except that God
intervened and some lads turned up, other soldiers with
guns, and said, "If you kill this man you will have to kill
all of us here". There on the seashore, God intervened. But
they had me ready to shoot me. Pedro Carmona, who is in
Bogotá had given the order. I have witnesses, in fact there
are some fellows right here.

You know that oligarchies generally think that waiters and
janitors are not people, it's as if they don't exist. So
Pedro Carmona, in front of the waiters and other people,
gave the order: "Take Chávez away and let him wake up
dead". That's it, yes. Let it look like there was an
attempt to escape, that they were going to rescue him and,
well, Chávez died. And what's more, since Chávez is a
murderer who killed many people, well he who lives by the
sword must die by the sword". The perfect strategy, except
that God and a group of young Venezuelan lads and all the
Venezuelan people intervened. And I am standing here thanks
to God. But I saw the face of the Grim Reaper (Laughter) I
did. What 's up? I said. I was ready to go off. God and the
people and those young soldiers, those comrades who are the
people in uniform, brought me back.

Now, am I going to order or to offer a reward, as if it
were something personal and send a group there? I have
quite a few friends in Colombia, they could do something; I
have quite a few friends in the Dominican Republic, a lot.
Am I going to send Venezuelan soldiers or police to bribe,
to offer millions of dollars to a group of Dominicans to
kidnap those Venezuelans and bring them here? I could do
it, believe me, I could do it, but I'm not going to do it
because I would be violating international law and the
sovereignty of that country and the respect I owe to the
Dominican president and, more than to him, to the Dominican
people. One cannot do that.

And you, my friend, President Uribe, I invite you one more
time to set things straight, to admit that officials from
your government, without you knowing about it, because I am
absolutely sure that you didn't know, I saw you two days
before, a week before, in Cuzco and we signed the birth
certificate of the South American Community of Nations, and
we were talking about the gas pipeline and the oil pipe
line, about cooperation between our two peoples, about you
coming to Venezuela again soon for another meeting, about
the petrol problem on the border, about the Cartagena
refinery, about all that and I do not believe that you had
any knowledge of this. But don't let yourself, my friend,
don't let yourself now be carried away by solidarity or by
something or because they confuse you. I think that you
must admit the mistake that your officials made, you must
take the steps that you feel appropriate there, in
Colombia, and after you have done that, come, and I offer
you my hand. Meanwhile, I will discuss no other matter. For
me, and believe me, for millions, all of us in Venezuela
who take that stance, and if some Venezuelans take another,
they are simply an exception. But here we are, all
Venezuelans, civilian and military, millions of Venezuelans
whom I represent when I say that I will discuss no other
subject but that. A crime was committed here, Venezuelan
sovereignty was infringed and Venezuela must have
restitution, and that's your job, Mr. President, my friend.
Say hello to Colombia.

After that long but necessary editorial comment -that
wasn't going to be the beginning of the program- I found
myself obliged, as a result of the information and analyses
and mostly because of reflecting, meditating deeply from
the early hours of the morning, obliged to start the
program this way with an affectionate hello to Colombia and
I ask us to give a hand to our sister, Colombia. And I say
that no one can slow down the process of integration
between Colombia and Venezuela, no one will be able to, no
matter how much power they have, to stop the South American
integration process.

The South American Community of Nations has been born, so
we are going to give it a helping hand: Colombia,
Venezuela, Brazil and all of us united, all together. Lula
is coming soon; I talked to him the day before yesterday on
the phone and the president of Brazil is coming to visit us
and we are going to make progress on, to push forward with
the projects that are underway between Brazil and
Venezuela, another series of strategic projects for
alliances in the field of energy, in areas related to the
infrastructure, in mining, in civil and military aviation
and in tourism.

On Monday February 14, President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva
will come to visit us to continue giving this helping hand.
This year we will also be visited by President Ricardo
Lagos, I spoke to him a few days ago. He is in Egypt now,
he told me he was going to Egypt, the president of Chile.
We shall shortly be meeting with the Argentinean president,
Nestor Kirchner. We shall shortly be attending the ceremony
when Tabaré Vázquez takes office in Uruguay. Soon I shall
go to Bolivia; we have an official invitation from
President Mesa of Bolivia. And all of this in favor of
South American integration, no one nor anything can prevent
it; it was Bolívar's, Abreu Elima's, San Martín's dream.
They failed, which is why Bolívar said "I have ploughed the
sea". Not now, 200 years later, now is when South American
integration has begun to see the light of day and to grow
strong.



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