JEWISH support for Israel: Yoshie and others...

["David Quarter" <davidquarter@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

   This will be my last comment on the matter (see the very bottom of
the message):

 M. Junaid wrote:

 <<<<<<<<<<<<<< I don't know of anyone in America who will
say, "No, I do not believe
in Israel's right to exist." That whole statement is so loaded with
false ammunition Hans Blix couldn't disarm it

 Yeah, most Jews in the US are supportive of Israel--just as most
Muslims in the US are supportive of the Palestinians. <<<<<<<<<



 Right. Most Muslims (and Arabs) will criticize the Israeli
occupation , just as most Native North Americans will speak out, in
some capacity, against the continuing genocide being perpetrated
against Native people, and most "white" Americans are likely to
downplay the issue of race within America, and I suspect that most
Italians will claim that Rossini or Verdi were superiour  composers
than Mozart and Beethoven or that the Azzuri (nickname for the
Italian national soccer team) is the best national side in Europe
(obviously the last two points are very much debatable)!

The fact of the matter is that most people socialized in any one
group will form groups attachments and as as result will display the
traits or characteristics traditionally associated with the group and
act in unison on many issues. This applies just as much to
persons who were socialized into the Jewish ***culture/race/religion
(take your pick)*** as it does to any other social groupings
currently roaming the earth.Not much of a revelation really when
considering recent history, and definitely nothing Marx the social
scientist/sociologist would have taken issue with.

Israel is almost as central to Jewish identify as the issue of 'Anti-
Semitism' -- in fact, the two issues are intrisincly linked for many
Jews ( even if they don't admit this openly or are conscious of this
fact). Whether or not an American Jew supports the peace plan,
opposes it, supports the Lukid government's policies, opposes the
Likud's government's policies, makes 'aliyah' six times a year,
makes 'aliyah'  two times a year; becomes a member of Americans
 for Peace Now, becomes a Member of Hillel, demonstrates
against the occupation, criticizes the oppupation, they will form an
opinon on Israel and that opinon will _more often than not _be in
favour of Israel right's to exist.

When you consider that even the most left wing Israeli Jewish
critics of Israel (eg., Uri Avery [spelling]) support the two state
solution (and oppose the right of return within Israel), that some of
the most left wing/non Marxist critics of Israeli policies fought on
Israel's side in one or all of the Arab Israeli wars, this point is really
nothing revealing ( The fact that left wing Jewish critics outside of
Israel generally hold stronger opinons towards Israel tells me little
since a similar situation confronts Palestinians living outside of
Palestine, as I assume would be the case with Iraqis or Arabs
supportive of the Iraqi resistance living outside Iraq).


There will be obvious political divisions within any commuinity, let
alone the Jewish community, which when it comes down it, it not
seem at all 'unnatural' (for loss of better words). Yet, is this to say
then that for most Jews (that is, with criticisms of Israel's policies) --
 that this somehow translates into opposition towards Israel's
existence more generally? Does opposing a particular policy under
capitalism make one anti capitalism? Obviously not. And just as
concerns over the matter of how a capitalist economy should
operate does not translate into embracing revolutionary marxism
(or an anti capitalist  pogram of any sort), concern with how Israel
should operate does not translate into being anti Zionist. If this
were the case, then there would be a *ll of a lot of Jews living both
within Israel's border and abroad calling for its destruction!

What, as I've said a million times, distinguishs a Zionist Jew from a
non- zionist Jew is support for_Israel's existence _ (if anyone can
come up wiht a better definitions for Zionism please state it). To the
extent that Zionist Jews will be divided on any or all issues
affecting Israel, they will be united on its right to exist.

Supporting Israel (in response to Junaid's comments), moreover,
will symbolize sometihng different for a non-Jewish person than  for
a  Jewish person since for both , one's support and(/or opposition)
will come about through (generally) entirely differnent experiences.

To begin with, most Jews will have a strong opinion on the issue of
Israel's right to existence,  whether they admit to this or not,
because, again, it is very much central to the Jewish identify. That
is to say, it will be a issue for many of Jews person growing up, will
make dinner talk, discussed at extended family gatherings, and at
other Jewish social events, etc. The average American, to the
extent that they can even locate Israel on the map, will formulate
their opinion based on how they see it fitting into American
interests in the region, and through what they hear in  the media
and cultural circles more generally (which as most of you would
agree is an overwhelmingly Pro Israeli message). Although
America's strategic interests is obviously a consideration behind
U.S. Jewish support for Israel, this is not why I would suspect
many  Jewish Americans would have come to this position in the
first place. The same reason that being an American citizen would
not explain why Palestinians living in the U.S. form their opinions
on the mid east (traditionally) in opposition to the American gov's
pro Israel stance. For Jew and Palestinian alike, their collective
experiences  will explain these patterns.

In any case, I could argue this point till my face turns blue,
although I doubt that it wouldn't change Yoshie's stance, let alone
improve my physical appearance.

Therefore, I ask you again, Yoshie (and whoever else holds the
same opinon on this matter) CAN YOU PROVIDE ME A POLL, A
STUDY, A PIECE OF EVIDENCE, ANyTHING AT ALL,
DEMONSTRATING THAT THE MAJORITY OF AMERICAN JEWS
DO NOT SUPPORT ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO EXIST?

All you have done so far has critiqued my own evidence, yet
without providing anything of substance to debunk my overall
argument.

If you can provide evidence to support your opinion, PLEASE
enlighten me. And I guess I will be forced to retract (or perhaps
modify) my stance. On the other hand, if you can NOT, as I
assume you cannot, provide such evidence then I would rather end
this debate ritght now as I am both short of time and too low on
energy to pursue it any further.

DOQ













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