Re: Prostitution in Cuba (To Walter L.)

[Armand Diego <causebellum@xxxxxxxxx>]

Walter:

I agree with Lou: let's not waste our time discussing
the nature of the Cuba state or the need or not of a
political revolution.

I purposely never mentioned those issues because I'm
simply not trying to convince you or anyone else about
my political positions.

It will be a waste of my limited time and yours, and
others.  And that was NOT the discussion we were
having.

The main problem is that you try to deny others the
possibility of stating their point of view on issues
like prostitution and jineterismo by posing as an
expert on something you either know little or refused
to see.

In addition you constantly contradict yourself and
call other people on things you're wrong.

I repeat, the discussion was and is about prostitution
and jineterismo and boterismo in Cuba, not what your
position or mine on the nature of the Cuban state.

I don't share your opinion or that of some others in
this list about the latter and, following Lou's line
of though, I'm not going to waste any time arguing
with hardcore believers, but rather try to find out
info in which we can have a productive exchange.

In addition, it is perfectly reasonable to disagree on
the nature and scope of the problem of prostitution
and black market in Cuba.

But you have no right to launch an attack on other
list member based on assumptions and denying well
known facts as the existence of the "Policia
Turistica." Or rather, you have the right to do it and
I have the right to call you on that.


Walter wrote:

"I do not deny the existence of jineterismo or other
problems. I see and can and do observe these things
regularly. These things worry and concern me seriously
and are topics I've written about and posted to the
internet. Many can be viewed or linked at my website
or on the CubaNews list."

Fair enough. But then, in the previous e-mail you
wrote:

Walter:

"2- "The question of prostitution is only a "big
question" because US propaganda has made it one.
Compared to Panama and Colombia, where it's legal,
there is virtually no prostitution at all in Cuba."

My comment:

this is not only contradictory with your newest
statement that you don't "deny the existence of
jineterismo and other problems."

In order to have an intelligent and mature exchange
you must make your mind as to whether you deny (or
don't) the existence of the factual information which
was the basis of the discussion. And whether is just a
problem because is raised by US imperialism or
something that you independently see as a problem.

You did deny it when I wrote about it, but then you
wrote you don't deny it when you wrote about it
before. So, is your immaturity to a level that you
will deny a problem exist - even if you know that does
- only because is commented upon by somebody you
disagree with politically on other issues.

As David Walters put it: that was a red herring.

You also assumed, without knowing anything about me
that I never visited or knew about Cuban society and
practically called me a liar because I indicated that
such a thing as the "Policia Turistica" exist:

Walter wrote:

"3- There are no "special police", no "tourist
police".  Trust me, there ARE
lots of cops here in Cuba. And there are cops in the
tourist areas, but they are the regular, everyday,
garden variety PNR, the National Revolutionary Police.
"

Why should we "trust" you? Because you're the
"expert?" Or you assume we are a bunch of fools that
will take your word for it, because you happen to be
touring Cuba at the moment?  The fact is, you ask to
"trust" you on something you ARE WRONG.

I answered:

The "Policia Turistica" not only exist but is
*promoted* by the Cuban government as a form of
"protecting" tourists.  It is a division of the PNR
identified by a little blue symbol with the letters
"Policia Turistica" in white letters stamped in the
shirt of the cops at every corner in tourist areas.

Their uniform is also distinctive from the regular PNR
regulars.  Surprised you never noticed.

Walter, you need to use your eyes and talk to one of
those cops, look at their uniforms and the symbols of
the Tourism Police on their shirts.

For those of you who are no planning to visit Cuba in
the next period, here are a couple of the dozens of
websites which promote tourism to the island where
they use the existence of the "Tourism Police" as a
promotional item:


CUBATRAVELCORP:

"In Cuba you won't worry about your personal of
familiar safety, because Cuban people is very quite,
friendly, wonderful, welcoming population. May be you
may listen to some crime histories, but international
organizations report that crime in Cuba is one of the
worldwide lowest.

This reality is due to the hard control that has
established the Cuban Government trough the Tourism
Police, a branch of the PNR (Policia Nacional
Revolucionaria), with policemen (and policewomen) in
each corner of Havana City and in main touristical
sites of all over the country.

This closed police control has been very positive
welcomed by hunderd of thousands of visitors, who
declare in surveys that they feel more safe in Cuba
that in their own countries."

http://www.cubatravelcorp.net/uscitizens/html/welcome.html

NASH TRAVEL:
"SAFETY: Cuba is a hospitable country. It is easy to
find help whenever you need it. The streets are safe
and attacks are rare. There are tourism police in
hotel areas."

http://www.nashtravel.com/generalinfo.html


Now, Walter, do me a favor.  You're in Habana as you
yourself have indicated. Walk towards one of these
cops, ask him/her whether they are "Policia Turistica"
(an specialized division of the PNR) who are in charge
specifically, among other things, of dealing with
jineterismo, prostitution, boterismo and other social
ills of which the Cuban government is not only aware
but very worried about.

Would you trust me if I tell you I talked to dozens of
these cops and I found out they specially trained to
deal with jineterismo, prostitution and boterismo and
that they indicated to me the existence of documents
and all kind of rules they need to study as well as
other stuff?

Then come back, and apologize.  Because you assumed
you knew something about this and you didn't.  You
either made a mistake, didn't know or were dishonest
about it. Don't move the goal posts and try to look
the other way or raise another red herring.  Just
verify the information and tell us your findings.

You can't attack the credibility of another person in
the list implying that he is a liar, assuming you're
the repository of the only truth or that as an
"expert" you know better, and expect to get away with
it by simply demanding "trust me".

No, Walter.  Our main differences in *this* discussion
is not whether I think a political revolution is
needed in Cuba or not. It is your unsubstantiated
charges that a) prostitution and jineterismo and
boterismo were not really important problems in Cuba
(when even the Cuban government recognize them as BIG
problems) and b) whether certain special institutions,
like the "Policia Turistica" were created by the Cuban
government to deal with the issue.

Your attacks against my innocent and mostly
descriptive and slightly polemical, but limited, post
about prostitution in Cuba by stating that the problem
in prostitution only existed because is raised by US
imperialism (implying somehow I'm on their side) and
that my information about the existence of the
"Policia Turistica" was not true -- therefore I was
lying -- are unacceptable and you should withdraw
them.

Sincerely,

DA



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