RE: Gibraltar

["Martin Spellman" <mspellman@xxxxxxxxx>]

Spellman:
> > The same applies to places like Gibraltar (and we had this argument when
Franco was alive about
> 'returning Gibraltar to a fascist regime'): Gibraltar's main purpose is a
> British naval base and if the base were to go the 'population' would go
with it.

Jordi:
> Well, not sure about that. If you want to develop a socialist position
> regarding Gibraltar you surely should take into account the opinion of the
> people who live there (not all of whom are related or work for the British
> naval base).

Spellman:
        The Union Jack flies over Gibraltar because Britain wants to be there. 
The
wishes of the 'Gibraltarians' have nothing to do with it. It was seized
during the Peninsula War of 1804-14 and is regarded as a strategically
important naval base. If and when Britain decides to go -- it will go and
the 'wishes of the population' will not detain it.
        Gib is only 2.3 square miles (5.8 sq km) in area and has around 30,000
inhabitants. Most work for the base or in shipping and there is some tourism
and food processing. The only reason it can exist as an entity is the
presence of the base.
        Even Northern Ireland, which is much bigger, requires over UKP3 billion
subsidy a year from Britain to survive. It could not exist as a separate
economic entity.
        The question is not what 'the people of Gibraltar' want but what need 
would
a socialist Britain (or England, Scotland and Wales come to that) have for a
naval base in Gibraltar?

Jordi:
> Most of them use to be quite happy with their situation since they were
> living in the south of Spain (where the weather is very nice!) and were
enjoying all the benefits of           > being British (for instance a
health and education system much better than the Spanish one, and general >
living standards higher than their neighbours and relatives on the other
side of the border).
>
Spellman:
        Perhaps so but it is not up to them -- it is up to the Brits. Otherwise 
you
get into the Kautsky/Fabian type position of 'benefits of colonialism' or
even worse 'the white man's burden' position. This holds that the withdrawal
of the colonial power would leave the situation much worse and that
therefore colonialism, in some form, should remain until people have the
necessary economic, political or cultural requisites for independence but
until then... (I am not saying this is your position BTW)

Jordi:
> One of the main grievances for people both sides of the border is the
> question of the border itself. Often the Spanish authorities arbitrarily
> close it with the effect that people cannot visit their relatives (many
> people have relatives on the other side and vice versa).
>
Spellman:
        These are problems of the British presence but if the base were closed
Gibraltar would be a very different place. Presumably it would become a
Spanish port and there would still be tourism etc. but the current major
employer would be gone.

Jordi:
> Also Gibraltar use to be a very strategic position, controlling
> one side of the route in and out of the Mediterranean sea. However as
Trotsky
> predicted, the centre of world politics and trade has shifted to the
Pacific and the
> Mediterranean has been relegated to being and unimportant lake.

Spellman:
        I don't think the Admiralty were ever taken by Trotsky's analysis. 
Whether
it was true then or now is another question.

Jordi:
> My opinion is that a revolutionary situation in Spain would
> easily win over most of the people in Gibraltar over to the side of
revolution (which they
> would see as a concrete improvement on their living conditions) and the
> issue of Gibraltar would be resolved. On the other hand any attempt to
force
> the people living in Gibraltar to join in Franco's Spain would have been
> fiercely resisted and would have strengthened the hand of the Franco
> dictatorship by whipping up patriotic feelings in Spain.
>
Spellman:
        My view is that if Britain became a socialist country it would have no 
need
for colonies or foreign bases. It is Britain that is in Gibraltar by
force -- not by the wishes of any peoples. Throughout the world there are
many people (including so-called British 'ex-pats') living a dependent and
even parasitical existence because of British imperialism. Many of them are
doubtless quite content with this and may not even realise it.
        Gibraltar was never a bastion of anti-fascism. If colonies and foreign
bases are wrong they must go. They cannot wait for acceptable political
governments to arise in the territory. It is wrong to say 'people get the
governments they deserve' but it is up to them to get the government they
want.

=======
PLEASE clip all extraneous text before replying to a message