Re: Indigenist" claims cover up British gr,

[David Walters <dwalters@xxxxxxx>]

on 8/7/01 7:52 PM, Xxxx Xxxxxx at xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:


> Why don't we raise the level of discussion here?  First off, the Mapuche
> situation can no way be compared to Balkananization. Mapuches are an
> indegenous group demanding some metarial and cultural concessions from the
> Chilean government, the same semi-colonial regime who oppressed  its
> workers and progressive forces under the neo-liberal bourgeois dictatorship
> of Pinochet. Two days ago, I posted an article to the list about the
> Mapuche claims. None of the evidence suggests that Mapuches want
> independence or a nation state apart from Chile.

I agree 100%...but...we would all, perhaps, agree that Basques are
indigenous to their country, yes? That they have a historic claim to the
territory they inhabit, suffered under 40 years of fascism, and hundreds of
years of Castillian domination. etc. and have historic national interested
up to and including an independent homeland. At least one can make this
argument and it has been made. I support it, certainly. But now certain
sections of this hitherto national movement are appealing to Europe, to be
recognized as an autonomous region within greater capitalist Europe. THIS is
a problem, obviously, as it plays into, and legitimizes the supra-Europe
that is trying to role back workers gains.

It is also true that the Zapitistas have made overtures to similar
institutions under the FTAA, the irony of which they oppose much of the
meaning of the FTAA and took up guns against the NAFTA 10 years ago.
Nevertheless, the legitimate claims of both indigenous movements, something
a priori any Marxist should support, can be undermined by the WAY in which
they manifest their demands.

David Walters

>>
>>> IN THE PAST, THEY WERE USED TO CREATE "BUFFER STATES", AND
>>> NOW THEY ARE SIMPLY ATTEMPTS TO REGENERATE THE COLONIAL STATUS BY
>>> TAKING TERRITORIES FOR THEMSELVES.
>>
>
> They are *not* taking territories for themselves.They are *not* aiming to
> create an independent Mapuche state or call themselves as Mapuche nation.
> Why is this chauvanistic nationalist attitude wrapped up in Marxian
> verbiage? Read the post I sent. Mapuches want some autonomy over the lands
> that belonged to them in the past. This is a matter of cultural
> recognition, not overtaking Latin America or an imperialist conspiracy
> against Chile. Unfortunately, some of the folks on this list remind me of
> racist Turkish nationalists, including Kemalist social democracts, who
> think Kurds divide the turkish nation or they are bunch indegenous mountain
> people.
>
>
>>> 1THE ISSUE HERE ARE NOT SMALL OR
>>> LARGE NATIONS. PUERTO RICO MAKES PART OF THE BALKANIZED LATIN AMERICAN
>>> NATION, AND ITS APPROPRIATION BY THE UNITED STATES IS SIMPLE COLONIAL
>>> LOOT.
>>
>
> Puerto Rico must have a full independence status because it is a colony of
> the United States. It is wrong to compare Mapuche to Puerto Rico. Puerto
> Ricans are a nation; Mapuches are an indigenous group. Puerto Ricon
> nationalist claims can not be obscured within the broad context of Latin
> American Federation since such a federation is far away from reality at the
> moment. Before the federation is estalished, PR should be liberated, not
> vice versa.
>
>>
>>> LATIN AMERICAN COUNTRIES ARE NOT "JAILS OF PEOPLES", BUT A MOSAIC OF
>> INDIGENOUS PEOPLES, CREOLE PEOPLES AND THE CHILDREN OF THE IMMIGRANTS.
>> THEIR COMMON DESTINY CAN BE SOLVED ONLY WITH THE CONSTRUCTION OF A JUST,
> FREE, SOVEREIGN AND SOCIALIST LATIN AMERICAN NATION.
>
> The only way to create free, soverign and socialist Latin American nation
> (whatever that implies btw) is to recognize _bourgeois democratic reforms
> and rights_ to underpriviliged people in the first place. This implies the
> rights of minorities, women, marginalized groups etc.. It strikes me that
> some of the Latin American comrades here do not EVEN want to give the same
> concessions that white ruling classes gave to blacks and Indians in the
> United States.
>
> Mine
>
>> THE STRUGGLE AGAINST  MININCO AND OTHER COMPANIES THAT USURP AND LAY
> BARE OUR TERRITORIES IS A STRUGGLE OF THE WHOLE CHILEAN AND ARGENTINEAN
> PEOPLE, NOT OF A "MAPUCHE
>> NATION" FOR INDEPENDENCE.
>>
>> COMRADELY,  FERNANDO
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Get your free email from http://webmail.earthlink.net