Re: Were there heterosexuals in pre-capitalist Europe?

["Charles Brown" <CharlesB@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

>>> xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxx 12/06/00 02:15AM >>>



Homosexuality is not limited by institutions and  discourses linked to Western
societies. Actually, there is a substitute name for homosexual in Turkish and it
dates back to Ottoman empire-- to a period much earlier than the enclosure
movement in Britain. Turkish gays, prior to their contact with gay liberation
movement in the west, did not utilize the concept *gay* to characterize
themselves. The turkish name for homosexuality is "ibne" (passive homosexual who
is fucked), "khaldun" (active hosemosexual who fucks). Ibne is/was more commonly
used than the other, though. The other expression for same sex act is *oglanci*
(the man who fucks *young* boys). I don't know if you guys have a substitute
name for these expressions in English!

With respect to Ottoman empire, some sultans, who were  part of the ruling
class, were homosexuals, not in the sense of plain fucking, but also in the
sense of enjoying gay love. Mind you that there was a class issue at stake
there. For example, Sultan's boys were generally belonging to a privileged
social strata such as governors, high court officials, generals. In Murray's
book on Islamic homosexualities (which I don't like btw, but still informative),
there is a chapter devoted to "Parental Enforced Obligations of Male Lovers" .
It talks about how Christian "parents sought to have their male children
selected by Turkish (Ottoman) officials as dancing boys and pages".(p.37). I
don't know what this is, if not a gay oppression!

(((((((((((((

CB: It may be "gay" oppression, but it is not heterosexism in pre-capitalist
neighboring Europe.