Tony, Please stop with the straw men

[Borba100@xxxxxxxxxxx]

In a message dated 09/05/2000 4:50:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
aabdo@xxxxxxxxx writes:

<<  Several other comrades seem to have the position of moving Milosevic
 towards sainthood, depending on what exact percentage of nationalized
 state property they feel still exists in Yugoslavia.  >>

I haven't seen anyone saying Milosevich is a Saint.  The point is it is
impossible to mobilize an antiwar movement to support someone you are
attacking as a criminal.  Were the Vietnamese saints?  The point is, one
focuses on opposing the Imperial power.  There is a reason that the Yugoslav
government is much better than, say, the Islamist government in Sarajevo -
the reason it, it was not organized by US intelligence based on bringing back
Diaspora fascists from around the world and recycling vicious race hate
straight out of World War II combined with the new Western creation, Islamist
fascism.  It was based on preserving the Yugoslav ideal.  That is the stance
of Milosevich and his wife, whom, by the way,  Andrej rather disgustingly
attacks.

(BTW - why is it OK to pour out such venom towards certain women, always
women who are attacked in the Western media as being dragon ladies?)

The point is, Yugoslavia is a little country.  It has stood up to the biggest
damned tyrannosaurs in history and has not capitulated.  This has had a
wonderful affect on the world.    They are not racists.  They have superb
relations with  Libya.  They have a military alliance with China and Iraq.
They remain pretty damned cool in the face of constant provocation.  Not bad
for a a little country that used to be a virtual US colony.

The Sainthood thing is just another straw man, Tony.

Jared


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I was strolling along minding my own business, when all of a sudden a
conversation from a list I was not subscribed to, came rolling in as a
personal email copy.     In an effort to clarify why posts were flying
between 3 different lists, all receiving only part of the dialog between
Andrej and Jared, I in turn was accused of coming to the defense of
Chomsky.

This is rather bizarre, because I happen to agree in large part with
what Jared is saying.    I am very critical of the role Chomsky has
played in demobilizing his supporters from ACTUALLY protesting against
NATO.   On the other hand, I am not in line to confer some sort of
sainthood on Milosevic, neither.      Apparently, Jared, this is not
enough?    I must admit to total admiration of Milosevic.

Let's look again at some of Jared's criticisms of Chomsky.....

<Even today he continues to suggest a moral equivalence between
Milosevich and NATO.>

Jared, I believe that there is a big element of truth here.     However,
he DOES say that NATO is the principle criminal element.     Then he
does little to actually mobilize protest in the imperialist countries to
protest agaiinst NATO.

<In the mid-90s, during the fighting in Bosnia he publicly argued that
the Serbs were guilty as charged.>

Guilty of what as charged?     The Serbs have been charged as having
done so many evil things, that it is not necessary to never see any evil
doings at any place or time by Serb forces, to disagree with this
demonization campaign.      Russians under Stalin's command were pretty
ruthless at times too.     Saying this, does not mean I am pro-Nazi.

<Precisely because many people idolize Chomsky I ask: how has Chomsky
used his influence to affect the antiwar struggle in the US and other
Western countries?>

Very poorly, Jared.   Very poorly.

<How has he, who wrote to me on May 12 1999 that he knows Milosevich is
being demonized because, and I quote, '"demonization' of Milosevic was
necessary in order to maintain public support for the bombing."
How has he used his influence?>

He has written a lot, but not used his influence to build an antiwar
movement in the streets.      An intellectual, amongst a group of
intellectuals, that have refused to try to mobilize their followers to
go to the streets and protest against US military use elsewhere in the
world.

<The answer is that he has supported NATO lies while criticizing NATO
enough to maintain his credibility on the left. His broad influence has
helped prevent the formation of a mass antiwar movement in the US and
Europe because nobody is going to get passionate about supporting
criminals.>

True enough.     It is harder to mobilize people unless they see the
side they are defending as being saints.     So lets get the Pope on the
ball.      No!     Let's just criticize the Pope for urging inaction
because he doesn't like the victim that much, and start trying to build
an active antiwar movement in the US, without deifying Milosevic at the
same time.

<Even when he "adjusts" his positions, he does so without (to my
knowledge) criticizing past positions - so the sludge of his past lies
about Yugoslavia stays in his readers' minds, with new sludge, adjusted
to the current stance of the NATO media, added.>

True enough, again.     Chomsky has a long history of that, dating way
back from Khmer Rouge times.      Just like Milosevic, the Pope falls
somewhat less than being a saint, Jared.    He doesn't always admit his
previous errors, he just keeps moving on.

Several other comrades seem to have the position of moving Milosevic
towards sainthood, depending on what exact percentage of nationalized
state property they feel still exists in Yugoslavia.      This is the
Trotskyist theory of the sliding scale of sainthood and deification.

This approach, too, should be rejected.     Solidarity should not only
be given to Yugoslav self-determination, if a cheering squad of comrades
from the imperialist countries  can be gathered.      We should support
Yugoslav self-determination because it is under attack from the
imperialist countries.     Period.

Jared, I want you to understand that Andrej and I have each our own
point of view in this matter.     We do not speak with one voice.      I
do not know exactly how Andrej views Chomsky.     His viewpoint is from
Belgrade, while mine is from San Antonio, Tx.      So we are going to
see Chomsky from 2 very different perspectives.

Best wishes, Jared.

Tony













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