DEBATE ON YUGOSLAVIA PART 2

[Borba100@xxxxxxxxxxx]

BLAME & CONSEQUENCE
4 - FRYE

"NO SLAUGHTER OCCURRED" in Srebrenica? Wow, this is beyond denial. If killing
5,000 people in broad daylight is not "slaughter," what is? Do you deny the
UN reports on this as well? This is sad. I don't know whether to feel sorry
for you, or angry at your cultural-induced delusion.

"Most of the rest of Tony's rebuttal is rant. E.g., he repeats the propaganda
lie that Bosnian Serbs systematically raped Moslem women. Rape is monstrous
and its cheap propaganda use by these Serbophobes to slander one of the great
victims of the Holocaust when hundreds of thousands of Serbian women WERE
raped and then slaughtered by Nazi proxies - including Izetbegovic's friends
- this is despicable."

A rant, excuse me, I'm not the one denying the existence of the slaughter of
thousands of people as a non-event. And your invocation of WWII is standard
among the ethnic nationalists in the Balkans: If my neighbors' grandparents
might have done something awful 50-60 years ago then they must also die. Your
quote of the Euro Green makes the argument that not enough attention was paid
to the others who were raped. I would agree, and if I was debating a Croatian
apologist for their Milosevic (Tudjman), I would have no qualms about
reminding them of Krajina (as I have with pro-NATO folk like Andre from
England). However, Johnstone's remarks about the rapes say nothing about
denying the existence of the Bosnian rape camps, which you deny. This would
be like a German ethnic nationalist taking my statements about the barbarism
of the Allied bombings of Dresden and the Soviet Red Army's rape of millions
of German women as a way to absolve or deny any of the Axis crimes during
WWII. I ask, do you deny the existence of the Bosnian rape camps? The United
Nations not only substantiated them, but has interviewed the victims who were
raped as well. Ah, but they're not of your kin, so their mutilation doesn't
count.

This is the consequence of nationalism. I say the same to you as I would any
other ethnic nationalist in the Balkans. I do not care what happened at some
battle 610 years ago. I do not care what someone's grandparents may or may
not have done during WWII. We are all members of the same species--Serb,
Croat, Albanian, Muslim, Orthodox, Catholic. We all have a common ancestry.
We breathe the same air and bleed the same blood. Everything else is a myth.
Until we can get beyond the myths, and hatreds, the rationalizations for the
deaths of others on all sides, the human race will die in a hellfire of war.
What is happening today will repeat itself over and over and over until the
Milosevics, the Tudjmans, the Clintons, the NATOs, the UCKs of the world are
subverted, their violence rejected, their leaders disobeyed.

BLAME AND CONSEQUENCE
5 - Jared (FRYE DOTH NAME ME: SERB!)

Frye is the name, misrepresentation is the game. (?Cause got no facts)

Yes, Tony, "killing 5000 people in broad daylight" would be slaughter; so too
at night. Do I then "deny the existence of the slaughter of thousands of
people as a non-event?" Not if it occurred, but it didn't; so I deny it, not
as non-event but as LIE. Dear reader, do you notice that I refute Frye?s
words whereas he generously stuffs unfamiliar ones in my mouth?

Do I "deny the UN reports on this as well?" I deny Srebrenica happened,
period, and I do so for solid reasons well explained in George Pumphrey?s
very readable article "Srebrenica: 3 Years And Still Waiting" which you can
still read, Tony, at:

http://www.emperors-clothes.com/articles/pumphrey/Srebrenica.htm

The U.S/German assault on Yugoslavia has featured a massive media campaign
against all the Serbs, especially in Bosnia. Here?s a nice example: early in
the Bosnian war, horrible pictures appeared on TV and in newspapers around
the world ? a group of Bosnian Muslim men, and especially one emaciated man,
behind barbed wire. These pictures, supposedly men imprisoned in a Bosnian
Serb concentration camp, were used by Bush and Clinton to whip up
anti-Serbian hysteria.

The pictures were edited from footage shot by a British (ITN) TV crew led by
Penny Marshall. As it happens a Bosnian Serb film crew accompanied Ms.
Marshall?s folks that day and filmed the Marshall people filming.

I have seen a copy of the Serbian film. It is clear that Marshall?s folks
shot from inside a barbed wire enclosure that had been set up to safeguard
some building materials. They were inside the barbed wire; the people they
were filming were outside. In the film we can hear and see Penny Marshall
talking to people through the barbed wire; it is obvious from her questions
that she's trying to get them to say something negative. Alas, they don't;
they say it?s a humanitarian food distribution center for people displaced by
the fighting, including Bosnian Moslems. Copies of that film are available.
Email me if you want one.

The Serbs are often charged with cherishing a false sense of victimization.
But with the exception of the Russians and Jews, Serbs suffered the worst
losses in W.W.II. 750,000 were slaughtered in death camps, untold thousands
more were hunted down by Croat, Bosnian Islamic Fundamentalist, ethnic
Albanian and Hungarian Nazis in groups like the League of Pritzen (Albanians)
or the Ustashe (Croatians) or the Bosnian SS divisions.

Nobody criticizes the Jews for "being obsessed with what happened to them in
WWII." And nobody would dare lump Jews and Germans together as Frye
outrageously lumps victims and killers when he says "invocation of WWII is
standard among the ethnic nationalists of the Balkans." Croat, Muslim and
Albanian nationalists deny what happened in WWII and for good reason: their
political forbears killed Serbs, Gypsies, Jews and Slavic Muslims, as well as
Communists and Socialists.

Frye scorns memory of this real Holocaust but is perfectly comfortable
comparing Serbian actions in the 90s with "Axis crimes during WWII." He finds
a convincing parallel between the policy of rape, used by the Germans for
terror and recreation, and the media stories about Serbian "rape camps." He
says the Diana Johnstone quote doesn?t argue against the existence of these
camps. Well du-uh. Diana says there was no evidence of systematic rape by
Bosnian Serbs so use the noggin, Frye ? no systematic rape means no rape
camps. In other words, Diana is saying it didn't happen. Not it camp, not out
of camp - nowhere.

Take heed folks: Serbophobia makes you dumb.

Regarding UN reports on rape in Bosnia: if Frye is talking about UN Report
ENCN.4/1993/50, it concludes there were about 2400 women raped on all sides.
(That's four sides...) (For more on this see:
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/rapes-fiction.html )

Explaining me racially, Frye says:: "Ah, but they [that is, non-Serbs in the
Balkans] are not of your kin, so their mutilation doesn't count. "

Sorry, Tony; I?m not a Serb. I?m a NY Jew. Born in Brooklyn. I was a leader
of the anti-war movement at Harvard. You can read inaccurate accounts of my
adventures in various books on Students for a Democratic Society. I am not
now nor have I ever been a Serb. Never even had a Serbian girlfriend. Just an
aging, stubborn internationalist who views all people as my kin. Including
non-Serbians in the Balkans. I just hates lies, Frye.

But I am not entirely unbiased. The Serbs refused to turn on the Jews in WWII
and paid a terrible price; I feel a certain debt and am disposed not to
believe they have turned into raving Nazis. So I guess that, like all the
Jews, I?m stuck in WWII. You finally nailed me, Frye. (For a marvelous
description of Serbian behavior during the Nazi occupation, please go to link
to A Jewish Doctor

BLAME AND CONSEQUENCE
6 - FRYE SAYS GOOD-BYE!

You're not even a good liar. Good riddance. I pity you.

* * * * *

Frye's dramatic last remark left me befuddled. I really am a New York Jew, I
even remember the Dodgers. I thought I'd hear no more from Frye but was
deceived. I posted the following, "Who's at Fault in Kosovo" and, as you will
see, Frye replied.

Who's at Fault in Kosovo
1 - Jared

NATO says Kosovo's problems began in 1989 when Milosevic suppressed Autonomy
out of nationalist spite.

According to this myth a)Kosovo was fine til then; and b)even after that the
U.S. boosted Milosevic as a democrat, only reluctantly turning against him
when his behavior became so fascistic that the NATO humanitarians had little
choice.

In fact the US was openly meddling in Yugoslavia as early as 1987. Covert
meddling surely precedes that date. In 1987 Congressman Dioguardi reported
efforts by him, Sen. Dole, Sen. Paul Simon and others to encourage Kosovo
Albanian secessionism. (NY Times letter, Nov. 8, 1987) The effect of this
cannot be over-stressed. When leading legislators in the U.S. openly support
a secessionist movement (especially when the CIA is "helping" too) it vastly
increases their appeal.

Before 1989, Albanian racists, very similar to racist whites in the old
south, persecuted non-Albanians.

"The [Albanian] nationalists have a two-point platform," according to Becir
Hoti, an executive secretary of the Communist Party of Kosovo, "first to
establish what they call an ethnically clean Albanian republic and then the
merger with Albania to form a greater Albania... "

"Some 57,000 Serbs have left Kosovo in the last decade, and the number
increased considerably after the riots of March and April last year,
according to Vukasin Jokanovic, another executive secretary of the Kosovo
party.

Mr. Jokanovic, former president of the Commission on Migration set up after
last year's disturbances... called the pressures disturbing and said they
included personal insults, damage to Serbian graves and the burning of hay,
cutting down wood and other attacks on property to force Serbs to leave." (NY
Times, July 12, 1982 )

Did you note the use of the phrase "ethnically clean"? This was in 1982. So
much for the Serbs having invented this term during the 1990s, as the media
tells us.

By 1987 the racist harassment had gotten worse:

The current hostilities pit separatist-minded ethnic Albanians against the
various Slavic populations of Yugoslavia and occur at all levels of society...
The army says it has uncovered hundreds of subversive ethnic Albanian cells
in its ranks. Some arsenals have been raided...

Slavic Orthodox churches have been attacked, and flags have been torn down.
Wells have been poisoned and crops burned. Slavic boys have been knifed, and
some young ethnic Albanians have been told by their elders to rape Serbian
girls...

The goal of the radical nationalists among them...is an ethnic Albania that
includes western Macedonia, southern Montenegro, part of southern Serbia,
Kosovo and Albania itself.'' (NY Times, Nov 1, 1987)

It was the Serbs and other minorities, not the Albanian majority, who
developed a movement against racist harassment in Kosovo because they were
the ones being harassed as an ethnic group. This movement became gigantic and
included not just Serbs but Roma ("Gypsies") who the secessionists hated as
much as they hated Serbs, as well as Goran (Slavs like the Serbs who had
converted to the Moslem religion) and Jews and even ethnic Turks and
Hungarians. (NY Times, 10/7/88) Contrary to popular belief, U.S. officials
did not merely support Kosovo Albanians' opposition, they openly fomented
ethnic strife. Thus Bob Dole and other Congressmen visited Pristina, in
Kosovo, in 1990 and the visit was the occasion for coordinated riots.

"Riot policemen used clubs and tear gas today to disperse thousands of ethnic
Albanians awaiting a United States Congressional delegation to complain about
human rights abuses.

"About 10,000 people chanting ''freedom, freedom!'' and ''U.S.A., U.S.A.!''
gathered in front of a hotel where the delegation of seven Republican
Senators was expected to hold talks with leaders of the Albanian majority in
Kosovo, a southern province of Yugoslavia. "The delegation, headed by Sen.
Bob Dole of Kansas, arrived in Pristina three hours after the clash and was
driven under police escort to a hotel for a meeting with leaders of Albanian
groups... " (NY Times, 9/6/90)

What an extraordinary situation, and what a clear expression of the
secessionists' strategy of getting the US help them create an ethnically pure
Greater Albania.

Who's at Fault in Kosovo
2 - Frye replies

"According to this myth: Kosovo was fine til then; and even after that the
U.S. boosted Milosevic as a democrat, only reluctantly turning against him
when it had no other choice."

We never reluctantly turned against Milosevic, but collaborated in his
conduct (actively opposing the initial break-up of Yugoslavia amid the ethnic
cleansing of the JNA and the JNA's invasion of Slovenia) until he became a
political embarrassment to the legitimacy of NATO at a time of its imperial
expansion on the back door of Russia. The turn against Milosevic was rather
unhesitating on our part, just as it was with Noriega and Hussein. All
killers need a devil to justify the deaths of their contrived enemies.
Milosevic needs the Albanians like NATO needs Milosevic. It helps brainwash
people into accepting the slaughter of civilians as some Hegelian
inevitability. All you need is a rationalization, such as your excuse for
killing thousands of civilians at Srebrenica on account of some
fundamentalist threat, or NATO's excuse-making for murdering civilian train
passengers as some type of "accident" (as if someone can "accidentally" bomb
anyone after launching).

This is the advantage of NATO Turkey doing the same thing to Kurds what
Yugoslavia is doing to Albanian Kosovars. This may sound cynical, but the
Serbs could have probably solved all of their problems by applying for NATO
membership, and gaining the license to treat their minorities the same way
Germany treats the Turks, the French treat Algerians, the Greeks treat
Macedonia, the Turks treat Kurds. Instead, you have to spend your time
spreading propaganda about the victim being the victimizer, the killer the
oppressed, the expelled the expellers. The Turks can just kill their
disfavored (as they did in a village raid the other day) and get away with
it. If you had been smart enough to maintain close ties to the US, and sought
arms support along with IMF loans, you still may be a unified race state
today.

Who is at Fault in Kosovo
3- Jared replies: Kurds ain't the KLA

It's like a monster movie. There's no explaining to Frye. You think you've
made what you're saying impossible to misunderstand and he turns up with the
same wacky answer, as if you had never spoken.

Thus Frye says I excuse the "killing thousands of civilians at Srebrenica on
account of some fundamentalist threat." But in the BLAME & CONSEQUENCE thread
I explained three times that if Srebrenica had happened it would have been
terrible but it didn't happen. The first time Frye quoted me as justifying
the Srenbrenica "massacre" he could have been mistaken. By the third time he
was either lying or stoned, who knows, I can't explain humans, give me a dog
any day, they tell the truth.

As for Frye's rambling comparison between Kurds and Ethnic Albanians in
Kosovo, it is false and in a way obscene.

False because we're comparing apples and oranges on both sides.

The Kurds are a nation without a state. The Kosovo Albanians have two states
- they are citizens of Serbia (this is complicated by the existence of
hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens, but I ain't touching that one) and,
if they want an Albanian state, they have - Albania. It's true that Albania
is in terrible shape, but it's a country.

The Turkish government outlaws all manifestations of Kurdish culture,
including language. The Serbian government provided, perhaps mistakenly, a
complete set of institutions for ethnic Albanians, including schools to Ph.D.
level.

In trying to crush Kurdish identity, Turkey has slaughtered 35,000 (it admits
to that - the figure must be higher). In the war between the KLA (an
externally-created terrorist group that mainly targets "collaborationist"
Albanians) and the Serbs, the U.S. said 2000 died as of the start of bombing.
That's genocide and I'm the Easter Bunny.

For 50 pages of information on the KLA's policy of assassinating Albanians
who resist their gangster rule, see

 http://www.siri-us.com/backissues/1999/SIT_3-5-Kosovo-Murders.html

The Kurds are scorned by the powers that be. The KLA has NATO as air force
and trainer. Not bad for struggling guerillas.

The KLA was put together from drug gangsters, Contra fashion. (For a host of
references to the KLA-gangster connection, see: (Chossduvosky under Articles
by Author at tenc.net - THe KLA: Grim origins))

The Kurds have been victims of a century-long genocide in Turkey. How many
Kurds has Turkey murdered one way or another? One million? Two million?
Nobody knows. This is not the case with ethnic Albanians - hence the
comparison has a certain obscenity: it denies a real genocide by trivial
comparison.

There has been genocide in Kosovo as well, but it has been committed against
the Serbs, by racists among the ethnic Albanians. These forces had their
field day during WW II when the Axis gave them Greater Albania, and they
declared a jihad and hunted down Serbs, Gypsies and reds all over Kosovo.
When the Partisans swept through Kosovo at the end of World War II, the local
fascists suffered a partial setback; defeated but not destroyed, they
responded much like the defeated slave owners in the post Civil War South;
they regrouped, they formed racist organizations, just as former slave owners
formed the KKK in the South and they began a campaign of terror against the
Serbs. It is that campaign which I describe in my post Who is to Blame in
Kosovo. And You will note that Fyre says nothing about the factual evidence I
present, from the NY Times, that the Serbs were the persecuted group in
pre-1989 Kosovo.

Milosevic did not invent the fact that somewhere around 100,000 Serbs were
driven out of Kosovo by violent harassment during the 70's and 80's. The
Serbs are not fighting to suppress cultural identity in Kosovo. They are
fighting a secessionist group of thugs, backed by the world's most powerful
imperialist states, who want to break up the Balkans into bite-sized pieces
so they can make lots of - money. They're killing all these people for money.
For more on this please see Chossudovsky's marvelous piece on Yugoslavia at

 http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/62/022.html

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