Re: Gray Whales and Mexico

[Debordagoria <phantasmagorias@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

L Safi:  "Marxists should resist echoing sentiments of
          the Wise Use movement."

   Indeed.  And perhaps comrades (such as Jose) could
   refrain from impersonating Rush Limbaugh.  It's
   embarrassing!!

--- Layla Safi <lsafi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Let's clarify some of the issues. Juan.      When
> you talk of the 20,000
> grey whales as being a secure population for the
> Makah to whale from,
> this is probably the case if taken into
> consideration by itself.
>
> But what if we put this into the context of the
> general world situation
> regarding whales as a whole, and the continued
> presence of industrial
> whaling?        Most people around the world are not
> so sophisticated
> regarding knowing about different species
> populations, and are going to
> see the politcal issue as one of whether to allow
> whaling, or not?
>
> In this spectrum, resuming whaling under almost any
> circumstances, gives
> the wrong message that we can continue to max out
> harvests from nature.
> The Makah Tribal leadership allied themselves more
> with the "wise use"
> movement, instead of with the Ecology Movement.
> And they appeared to
> ally themselves with the International Whaling
> Industry, and not against
> it.
>
> Jose's comments are indicative of why doing this is
> so dangerous.
> His cries of racism against those ecologists he
> disagrees with, are
> reminiscent of the tactc of labeling Greens as being
>  "eco-terrorists".
>
> It's also clear,  that his ridicule of Macdonald for
> Macdonald's correct
> desciption of the beef industry as being
> ecologically destructive, shows
> the typical lack of citizen knowledge concerning
> these basic
> conservationist issues.      If Jose could visualize
> huge areas being
> degraded into desert by overgrazing, he might
> understand what Macdonald
> was saying.     Or maybe he thinks this is a racist
> falsehood?
>
> The truth is that most Americans want to believe
> that there are no
> finite limits on what can be taken from nature.
>  It is this aspect
> of what the ecology movement is up against that
> dominates pro-Green
> thinking, not just romantic sentimentality about
> saving 4 or 5 whales.
> And the same issues come up in regard to seals,
> bison, and salmon.
> Capitalist society wants to max out harvest.
>
> That is not to say that Native Americans are the
> problem, instead of the
> dominate culture being the cause.       The Makah
> tribe certainly is not
> a major factor in why whales continue to be
> endangered.      And the
> Sierra Club is not the main danger to undocumented
> immigrants, neither.
>
> Hopefully the Native American communities and The
> Greens will build
> alliance together in the future, rather than become
> involved in disputes
> of this sort.       And marxists should resist
> echoing sentiments of the
> "wise use" movement.
>
> L. Safi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822
> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 20:13:49 -0800
> From: "Juan R. Fajardo" <fajardos@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: marxism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Gray Whales and Mexico
> Reply-to: marxism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
> Layla Safi wrote:
> >
> > As this article makes clear, The Makah were not
> picked out and attacked
> > in some sort of fascist, racist conspiracy by
> environmental groups to
> > limit Native American rights.       And the fact
> that this is an issue
> > in Mexico also, helps give the lie to the argument
> that Gray Whales have
> > no need of protection.     Even the Mexican
> government recognizes that
> > Grey Whales need a protected environment,  not one
> that continues to
> > endanger them.
>
>
> Your exemplar article on the decision to halt the
> construction of the
> Mitsubishi salt works in Mexico shows that the
> Mexican government is
> aware and concerned for the ecology and preservation
> of the Gulf of
> California and the gray whale population, for which,
> I am sure, we all
> rejoice.  It does not, however, support your
> contention that the Makah
> ought to be prevented from living their traditional
> culture and from
> exercising their treaty-guaranteed rights.  There is
> a clear difference
> between allowing the construction and operation of
> an industrial plant
> which threatens the existence of the ecosystem upon
> which the entire
> gray whale population depends, and allowing the
> killing of a total of
> only five whales per year by a single tribe.
> Surely, in terms of
> scale, the former represents a grave and immediate
> threat to the very
> survival of the species, while the latter does not.
>
>
> In the heat of the argument you seem unwilling to
> make a clear
> assessment based on empirical data that would
> clearly indicate that a
> species that numbers in the tens of thousands will
> not be threatened by
> the artisanal hunting of five individuals, and that
> such a hunt is not
> the same, nor the prelude to the resumption of
> industrial-scale whaling,
> which would, and did, pose a threat to the species'
> survival.  Thus your
> arguments end up being based on sentimentality and
> emotionalism about
> the environment and animals in general, and about
> whales in particular.
> That emotion is understandable and, I'm sure,
> well-warranted, but it
> does not constitute effective grounds for the
> argument you are trying to
> pursue.
>
> Based on grounds such as you seem to basing your
> position on, one would
> have to argue, for example, against Lakota and
> Cheyenne slaughtering
> bison for religious rituals and cultural events.
> The dynamics of the
> situation are the same: an animal population, for
> which many people hold
> an emotional or symbolic attachment, was driven to
> near extinction by
> indiscriminate hunting, it was then protected and
> has rebounded to
> number in the tens of thousands, a miniscule number
> of which are killed
> in a ritual fashion by native tribes who have
> depended on that animal
> for centuries, and for whom the hunt or slaughter
> represents, in very
> real way, the opportunity and vehicle for cultural
> and societal
> survival.
>
> Would you, then, make that same argument about the
> Plains Indians and
> the bison? About the Chinook and the salmon?  The
> Inuit and the seals?
>
> - Juan
>
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