RE: Chris "Tory concept of voluntary elections"

[abc170@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

There may be some misconception here.

Firstly as I explained Australia does not have compulsory voting - all you need 
to do
is have your name crossed off a roll by a number of methods I indicated.

If you don't get your name crossed off you are liable to a small fine.  You 
don't get
fined for not returning your paper, though once you are in the booth everyone 
does.

People who want to bring in limited voting oe qualified voting or voluntary 
voting try
to create political space for their destructive urges by using bourgeois scare 
words
like "compulsion".

I do not look at the issue on the basis of any dichotomy between voluntary 
(soft and
nice) and compulsion (hard and nasty).  These techniques are used by, for 
example, the
CIA to disrupt discussion and are based on CIA research work done on the so 
called
"semantic differential' by Charles Osgood.

By using such language people actually try to coerce readers into an arbitary
position.

The point is not therefore gratuitous questions about whether I support any 
step to
compel people?  This is irrelevant, and leads on and on into all sorts of 
tangles - we
compel people to wear seat belts, pay taxes, do jury service, have licences, not
smoke, not sell drugs, not bring live animals into quarantine areas, return 
library
books, use passports, and to participate in elections.  Why is it the 
bourgeoisie want
compulsory law, police, taxes, conscription but voluntary elections??  Why do
anarchists want voluntary elections even under states with compulsory traffic 
and
compulsory public health laws??

I cannot follow their logic.

I think Bertold Brecht said it nicely - "wouldn't it be easier for the 
parliament to
dismiss the people and elect another".

Non-voluntary elections by themselves also need other structural elements 
(secret
ballot, no qualification, paid representatives and etc).  The actual ballot is 
only
one element.

It is possible for a democratic State to exist for a period wherein voluntary
elections may suffice, but not in the long run.  I wouldn't be too blinded by 
any
supposed success in Cuba - things do change, and I have sat in meetings in 
Belgrade
and Moscow hearing LCY and CPSU telling how they were dealing with this ot that
problem, and look what happened.  If it is true that Cuban's have stated what 
Paul
claims, I would like to see the evidence.

So if someone dares to imply that I think it is ok to compel workers to the 
ballot box
- they had better review their own statements.

It would be good too if those pushing this voluntary Tory-anarchist line, tried 
to
provide some basis in Marxism.

Otherwise they should be posting on some other list.

Chris W








 Thu, 10 February 2000, Paul.Benedek@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

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> Subject: RE: Chris "Tory concept of voluntary elections"
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>
> Chris has an interesting position here:
> He totally opposes voluntary elections (because they lead us away from 
> universal
>suffrage); yet he believes we should not counterpose voluntary elections with
>compulsory voting.
>
> So, concretely, what is his position? Does he OPPOSE ANY STATE MEASURE TO 
> COMPEL
>people (on pain of penalty, fine, etc) to vote?
>
> It appears not, for Chris implies agreement with the Australian system of "The
>requirement is for every citizen to deal with their right to vote so noone 
>else can
>impersonate them."
>
> Thus Chris seems to think some compulsion is OK - its OK to force working 
> people to
>the ballot box, but not to make them vote for anyone (as stated previously,
>AUstralian laws, while allowing millions to be spent on encouraging working 
>people to
>vote for this or that tyrant to rule over them, DISALLOWS people to CAMPAIGN 
>for an
>informal vote. Thus, while dissillussionment with elections is very high, 
>probably
>similar to the US, relatively few people cast an informal vote).
>
> The 'requirement' that Chris supports (it is actually compulsion, as those 
> failing
>to do so face fines and more) has NOTHING TO DO WITH preventing people from 
>being
>impersonated - electoral security is terribly weak because no-one gets very 
>excited
>about such a sham event - voters need not show any ID or anything, they just 
>need to
>know a name.
>
> No, the idea that electoral security is what compulsory voting is about is a
>bourgoise lie. (As an aside, such a system IS COMPULSORY VOTING, even if blank
>ballots are allowed - returning a folded blank paper IS a vote, a vote for no
>candidate - totally legitimate). In reality, this compulsion is used to FORCE, 
>to
>ADMINISTRATIVELY INSURE a pretence of "universal suffrage", of genuine 
>"democracy",
>masking the reality (which CANNOT BE MASKED IN A PLACE LIKE THE USA) that most 
>people
>are totally disenfranchised by this democratic show.
>
> Chris believes voluntary voting in Cuba is a fatal flaw. The Cuban 
> revolutionaries,
>unlike Chris, do not believe that ADMINISTRATIVE, COMPULSORY measures should
>substitute for POLITICALLY convincing the Cuban people, raising the political
>consciousness, and providing the material benefit (ie the Cuban people SEE IN
>PRACTICE that their vote means something - they see their representatives work 
>and
>put the decisions that the majority determine - if their rep doesn't do that, 
>they
>can be recalled, because they are accountable). Having voluntary elections 
>means that
>the Cuban leadership can test the politicisation of the people - if elections 
>were
>compulsory the leadership would not get any indication.
>
> Chris wants modern Marxism to "recognise and strucually implement true 
> Universal
>suffrage"
> So do I. The only problem here is that we DO NOT LIVE UNDER a modern Marxist 
> state
>in Aust., the USA, Argentine, etc. We live under bourgoise states, and we sure 
>as
>hell shouldn't give them the right to compel us, and all working people, to 
>vote in
>THEIR elections.
>
> comradely,
> Paul
> -----Original Message-----
> From: abc170@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:abc170@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Thursday,10 February 2000 17:04
> To: marxism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: marxism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Chris "Tory concept of voluntary elections"
>
>

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