Re: How to handle the contradictions with police agents

["Karl Carlile" <joseph@xxxxxxxxx>]

Karl: I cannot see the sense in wirting this kind of stuff. At most
it merely generates suspicion which does not help the development of
the List.

Perhaps privately or otherwise you make what you mean more clear.
Perhaps then I will see some sense to your message.

                                            Karl
> I apologize for having to take up more bandwidth with list matters.
> The experiment of having a mailing list in which working class people
> and others can debate with revolutionary activists and Marxist
> intellectuals is, in my view, a very fruitful one.  I am committed to
> do everything possible so that it can continue.  However, in order to
> make it feasible in the long run, the list members must understand the
> specific strengths and limitations of the medium, and be aware of the
> political environment of this list, and also the environment within,
> i.e., our inherited attitudes which may silently obstruct that what
> we consciously set out to do.
>
> The issue which I have to address is that of police informers and
> agents provocateurs.  We all know that this list is being watched,
> there are informers on this list who are collecting information about
> us.  There is nothing we can do about it, we have to live with it.
> This is also nothing new.  This is a risk inherent in any political
> activity.
>
> But the Marxism list presents us with a new dilemma.  One of the
> strengths of this list is that it allows for thorough written debates,
> with an excellent chance that theoretical weaknesses in the
> arguments will be discovered.  In some sense we are strangers, but in
> other ways we know each other quite intimately.  Nobody can hide.
>
> One implication of this nobody-can-hide effect is that it becomes very
> difficult for police agents, who do more than just passively record,
> but who speak up, to keep their cover.  After all, they are only
> humans.  They are watched by hundreds sharp observers, and every word
> they say is recorded.
>
> Let us assume, for the sake of the argument, that a real police agent
> enters the list.  But he or she trips up repeatedly, gets provoked,
> reveals himself or herself on the list.  The evidence is never beyond
> "all reasonable doubt", because the list is only one narrowly
> circumscribed cross section of real life.  Therefore it will never be
> possible to "convict" this person on the list, although many list
> members will be quite certain that he or she is a fraud.
>
> Will the intelligence services of the world tell their operatives to
> remain silent on the marxism list because it will blow their cover?
> Probably not.  Such a half-detected mole can have very desirable
> effects for our enemies.  The evidence of being watched will drive
> some list members away.  And the presence of such a mole can
> absolutely poison the atmosphere on the list.  It is one thing to
> debate with comrades whom one admires but who one thinks are victims
> of a wrong theory, or who have not yet stripped off the eggshells of
> the liberalism and anticommunism they were born with, and it is
> another thing to speak to someone who is likely to be a police agent.
>
> It can also divide the list.  Those who denounce the police agent put
> their credibility at stake, especially if they are stupid enough to
> resort to hhhoooooowwwwwwlliing.  The noise itself may cause some list
> members to leave.  And most importantly, this situation strains the
> bonds between revolutionaries and critical intellectuals, which this
> list tries to foster, and which is so dangerous to the system if it
> succeeds.  Because it puts the intellectuals on the spot.  Chances
> are, they do not want to waste their time with reading through
> complicated and messy evidence, which is perhaps suggestive but will
> never be sufficiently conclusive for their standards of what is
> scientific and what is ethical.  Furthermore, they do not think they
> are in danger; after all, you don't expect to be put in prison for
> reading Grundrisse.  Therefore, only the activists are likely to
> debate these matters, with the intellectuals staying out of it and
> having friendly chats with the suspects, as if their comrades on the
> front lines were indulging in mindlessness or paranoia.  It will evoke
> the old class issues: intellectuals sitting in their offices, basking
> in the consciousness how progressive they are, while others do the
> dirty work, are imprisoned, tortured, and killed.
>
> Therefore, we cannot expect that the police agents will stay silent
> on this list, even if they can be spotted almost immediately.
> And when they arrive, this will be a challenge for us all.  But
> maybe it is a challenge which will allow us to grow.
>
> Of course, I have described here a hypothetical situation.
> Any similarities to current events are purely coincidental.
>
> Hans E.
>
>
>
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>
>


                              Yours etc.,
                                         Karl


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