Degenerated workers state= oxyMORONIC

[neil <74742.1651@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

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CC:     jack and sarah ailey, 73613,516
        Ray hickman, INTERNET:r-hickman@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        J.S.Daborn, INTERNET:J.S.Daborn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Mauro, INTERNET:Mauro.jr@xxxxxx
        curtis price, INTERNET:cansv@xxxxxxxxxxx

Re:     Degenerated workers state= degenerated anti-marxist analysis

Dear friends,

Let the debate on state capitalism vs. workers rule in ex-USSR, E. europe, etc
continue!!

Don't let the workers staters put up their confusions and smokescreen without
challenge..
Not only has history itself proven their line absurd and untenable. Now 
hankering for
a return to  the "good ole days" of "degenerated workers states" in Ex USSR 
bloc,
Yugo, Albania, etc. can only serve to further discredit Marxism in the eyes of 
coming
up new generation of militants.

Force the issue to even ground . THE issue is the the underlying ECONOMIC BASE
of these societies political superstructures.

State Capitalism is a description of  the economy, so at least we are in the 
ballpark.

Degenerated workers states, petty bourgeois states, bureaucratic state 
despotisms
 etc. are descriptions of the political superstructures of states. THis is a
bourgeoipolitical scientists approach to dealing with societal analysis, it is 
NOT
marxism.

Also for those who hold to the old bankrupt workers stater dogmas. Uhh, ladies 
and
gentlemen in this crowd, if your views are correct , did you realize that Marx 
and
Engels and Lenins  views in historical materialism for societal developement 
would
also have to be seriouly reconstructed to make due for your conceptions.

I am never one to say that  M-E-Ls views dont need to be updated. Heaven knows i
have argued for this in various forums for years. I am saying you have
TO:     Marxism list-e-mail, INTERNET:marxism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
CC:     jack and sarah ailey, 73613,516
        Ray hickman, INTERNET:r-hickman@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        J.S.Daborn, INTERNET:J.S.Daborn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
        Mauro, INTERNET:Mauro.jr@xxxxxx
        curtis price, INTERNET:cansv@xxxxxxxxxxx

Re:     Degenerated workers state= degenerated anti-marxist analysis

Dear friends,

Let the debate on state capitalism vs. workers rule in ex-USSR, E. europe, etc
continue!!

Don't let the workers staters put up their confusions and smokescreen without
challenge..
Not only has history itself proven their line absurd and untenable. Now 
hankering for
a return to  the "good ole days" of "degenerated workers states" in Ex USSR 
bloc,
Yugo, Albania, etc. can only serve to further discredit Marxism in the eyes of 
coming
up new generation of militants.

Force the issue to even ground . THE issue is the the underlying ECONOMIC BASE
of these societies political superstructures.

State Capitalism is a description of  the economy, so at least we are in the 
ballpark.

Degenerated workers states, petty bourgeois states, bureaucratic state 
despotisms
 etc. are descriptions of the political superstructures of states. THis is a
bourgeoipolitical scientists approach to dealing with societal analysis, it is 
NOT
marxism.

Also for those who hold to the old bankrupt workers stater dogmas. Uhh, ladies 
and
gentlemen in this crowd, if your views are correct , did you realize that Marx 
and
Engels and Lenins  views in historical materialism for societal developement 
would
also have to be seriouly reconstructed to make due for your conceptions.

I am never one to say that  M-E-Ls views dont need to be updated. Heaven knows i
have argued for this in various forums for years (on the question of 
nationalism,
trade unionism , elections, etc.). I am saying you have to realize the
Qualitative changes to Marxist world view  your trend still  promotes
and for it to jive as marxism it has to mesh with basic underpinnings of Marxian
scientific analysis of social developement and change.

This is where the state capitalist analysis towers over the metaphysics and 
eclectic
 and pragmatic  analytical methods  of workers staters.

The best studies on the state caps are , I think
Trotskyist mavericks LRP
THE LIFE AND DEATH OF STALINISM, LRP, NY.  contact Mr. Daum on this list
for this

left-Communist
REVOLUTIONARY PERSPECTIVES  (old series) Communist Workers Org.
Box 338, Sheffield S3 9YX, UK

The workers staters are stuck with the field of the Sparts , Mandelism, Jack 
Barnes
Sam Marcy  and Gus Hall  in the post parade with Malecki, Proyect, and Murphy
providing outrider services.
I would not bet the farm on this bunch!!

NC



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