Re: Wages system under new management

[malecki@xxxxxxxxxx (Robert Malecki)]

Neil writes;

>Dear robert,
>
>Once again we get just more bullshittivism from you.
>
>In plain ABC language again please define and explain the ECONOMIC BASE
>and class ralitions of your precious stalinist "workers states"
>No more political dodge ball, as you are not fooling too many forces on
>this list lately.

Neil, you still don,t understand anything! Even the Russians understand it
better then you do. The below was in the post this morning..

Vladmir writes;
I guess I am "cynical" enough to add that a theory of state capitalism
seems to have been determined more by psychological than theoretical
motives.  I have in mind the tremendous pressure of the bourgeois
public opinion which the isolated anti-Stalinist groups of socialists
in the West (especially in the USA) have been facing since the 1930s.
>From the beginning, the problem of the nature of SU was as inseparable
>from that of its defence as theory from practice can be for communists.

There have been only three choices:

1. To accept Trotsky's position and to wage international struggle both
against the imperialist threat from the ouside and Stalinist
bureaucracy from the inside.

2. To renege, as Burnham did.

3. To eliminate the problem "theoretically," as Cliff did.

Objectively, the third option has been instrumental in the
international isolation of the Soviet working class and therefore in
the weakening of proletarian internationalism everywhere.

The theoretical falsity of Cliff's theory has been proven by the real
capitalist restoration in SU.  To continue holding to it in the face of
this is to betray hundreds of millions of socialist workers who today
face the final all-out attack on them by the combined forces of
international capital and their own bureaucratic-bourgeois cliques.
These workers are now witnessing the devastation that their Soviet
comrades suffer in their defeat.  They know that the same lies in store
for them too should they fail to defend their factories and their
land.  They need all help from the outside they can get.  They have
right to expect this help first and foremost from the adherents of the
Communist Manifesto. Will it come?

Vladimir

It appears even for the Russians what the debate in reality is all
about..That is the political superstruture in reality..


>We who have studied and some who have also experienced
>the state capitalist regimes have been more open honest and have put
>our marxist cards on the table. Ante up or cash in your
>stalinapologetic chips.

The only cards you turned up was the complete bankruptcy of facing reality.
There are big differnces between transitional states and imperialist states.
You in your state capitalist friends deny that to slip the pressure of
defending a step forward. In fact what becomes more and more clear is your
impudent inability to the living reality of tremendous class forces at work..

>
> Your Puerile and evasive replies like "tansitional state" , deformed
>workers state,degenerated workers state are references to a
>political superstructure- not very scientific ones either.
>Robert!---IT's THE ECONOMY STUPID!

Do you really think the two can be seperated?
>
>Your analysis is just metaphysics and idealism! Not marxism.
>What do get from you? 75 years of frozen state "Bonapartism"
>This is also quite disingenuous. How can any state stand above
>classes? You never answer because you and the trotsky orthodoxos
>have no logical or materialist answer. You would have to question
>your lord and savior trotsky and to you would mean heresy .You
>should clean out you rubber pants and take up the samurai code!
>Even that would be more honorable than peddling that stalinapologetics
>that you put forward for state caps in power.

The only thing frozen around here. No, in fact the real action here is that
state capitalists found a third way under imperialist pressure to use the
Stalinists mistakes to try and wipe out the gains of the October revolution,
In fact capitulating to imperialist pressure you came up with the line " We
spit on both your houses".
This is an act of political cowardness. Those who can not defend the old
positions will never be able to defend the new positions..
>
>But though trotsky did some great things as a staff planner during
>the russian revolution and the bloody civil war , he made a lot of
>mistakes as most all mortals do. But you and YOUR epigones just want
> to put up this totally doltish view and defend stalinists and their "
>workers states". OK , where in these states do the mass revolutionary
>institutions plan and coordinate the running of the economic or political
>life of these  state cap regimes you hanker to support --and i can
>presume build?!?!

Wow, a little recognition of Trotsky. Thank you. But its a bit to late. Your
line puts you in a situation of not being able to intervene in the living
class struggle of today. What began with overgiving the defense of the
Soviet Union as become overgiving defense of trade unions and probably just
about everything that you think has betrayed the working class. You complete
inability to see living class struggle, nor take a marxist position puts you
in complete isolation from the real world..

>YOU are the one who squeals for marxists, workers and others to
>support eastern imperialism over western imperialism. Just look
>at the way the ex-USSR looted No. China after WW2. Look at the
>way the Stalins ripped the guts out of the E. Europeann economies-
>it made liitle differnce in the end to them whether these E. European
>countries baked fascism during WW2 or not. They were all looted
>economically and politically with trade and joint-stock investment deals
>that would make the plunderers of US imperilaism green with envy!

The above is taking you into the camp of the maoists ideology.And the
Stalinists "looting" of East Europe after the second world war. Well, good!
However when they looted the capitalist countries the Red Army conquered
they were incapable of building a new society based on workers power. That
was the problem. Not that they wripped off half of Europe from the capitalists!
>
>You are an apologist for Russian bayonets. You nail US imperialist
>bayonets but do you suck up to Russian ones. Well , maybe with your
>logic , if the US would nationalize a bit of industry here and there
>it could be deemed by you as some kind of degenerated workers state
>too and then you might be able to support it too . Oh I forgot one thing
>yours is always "military but NO politcal support' One of the most
>doltish and anti leninist slogans one could fathom. Malecki, have
>you ever read Lenin on fighting imperialism and imperialist wars?
>Read the chapters in LCW where he deals with cover-ups , apologetic
>views like yours when give the examples of  of the clarity of
>the prussian militarist  planner von Clausewitz compared to "socialist'
> and reactionary  apologists for imperialist war in Lenin's time. Even
>though the world has changed much since then , much of this is still
>relvant to showing the absurdity of your dogmas.

No i don,t nail Russian bayonets in World War 2. Yes i do nail imperialist
bayonettes! Right. That is the difference between Trotskyists and state caps!
And yes i know very well what Lenin says about imperialist wars that is why
i had the above position. Neil, your position shines through again a plague
on both your houses. The only dogma here is the state caps who put
themselves above world war two and the gigantic forces in action..
>
>So no one here can stop you from tooting your  own  horn & supporting
>state cap tyranny over workers. But few will  take you seriously.
>Your "tank socialism", really state cap rule is turning millions
>of workers off. If you don't believe me, get off your computer for
>a few hours, go down to a factory complex and just try promoting your
> crap to the workers. You  would be doing the bourgeoisie a  favor
>every time you do.

The workers in the local factory are in unions and i talk to them all the
time. You do not because like the Soviet Union you have written off the
Unions also. It is the underlying thread of a trend that has put itself
above and beyond class struggle. So you can add to you list of of malecki
crimes that i give support to the pro imperialist social democrats because
i,m a member of a union. That is the logic of you ramblings.

Once again Neil. Go join the nearest organisation claiming to be
"Trotskyist". Then in time you might find your way to the Bolshevik
Leninists. But with the latest letter of yours i should add. Join the
Russian CP because that would be a step forward. Maybe a critical vote in
the elections along with mine..

Warm Regards
malecki in exile..




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