Revolution

[Justin Schwartz <jschwart@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

I think the following discussion reveals a basic misunderstandinf of the
Marxist notion of revolution. Both Chegitz and Jim confuse revolution with
insurrection or armed revolt. That is not what Marxists ought to mean by
revolution. Armed revolt is a tactical means toical means to the endd or
aims of working class power, of makiung the working class the ruling class
and winning the battle of democracy, as some old German once put it. The
latter, the attainment of a basic change of the structure of class
relations, is what Marxists should mean by revolution. Obviously this does
not address the merits of whether insuurectionist tactics are necessary,
feasible or advisible in the current situation or the foreseeable future.
I am personally agnostic on that question. But we should understand that
the revolutionary aim of working class power is not affected by the way
that question plays out. --Justin

On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, Chegitz Guevara wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Jim Jaszewski wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Chegitz Guevara wrote:
> >
> > > Remember, Marx said that it was possible to build socialism without a
> > > workers' revolution under certain, very limited conditions. In the cases
> > > of the U.S., G.B. and the Netherlands, he believed it was possible to to
> > > achieve socialism by electoral means, but only because the repressive
> > > apparatus of the state was not fully formed. In the case of Russia, he
> > > said it was possible to base socialism on the peasant commune, but only
> > > if Western Eurpe had already had it's revolution and was able to extend
> > > substatial aid to Russia.
> >
> >     Let's (hopefully) get something VERY clear here:  the time for
> > peaceful transition to socialism on _this_ planet -- if it ever existed --
> > is *LONG* past.
>
> [snip]
>
> >     It should be clear to any communist that they intend to DESTROY us
> > and give no quarter -- hell, they're even in the process of trying to
> > outlaw _UNIONS_, people!!  The `repressive apparatus of the state' _is_
> > now fully-formed -- or close enough to it, what with all the new
> > efficiencies of computerization and mechanization.  They've been
> > forewarned, and they _won't_ be going back to sleep...
> >
> >     There is _NO_ point in continuing to toy with the idea of a
> > `peaceful' transition.  I'm sure Marx just threw that out because he
> > wanted to cover all the bases, and it just MIGHT'VE been possible in the
> > 19th Century -- you just never know, eh..?
> >
> >     *Well now we do*.
> >
> >     Wasting any time, or -- even worse -- basing _strategy_ on this,
> > is a _GUARANTEE OF DISASTER_.  This type of thinking should remain an
> > intellectual curio of the 19th Century and the period up to 1917 -- and we
> > should just get on with the job of bringing the capitalist system down --
> > by any means necessary...
>
> Jazz, you're taking me out of context here. My point was that we can't
> simply rely on formulas. The classic Trot line is, without a workers'
> revolution, you can't possibly have socialism. I wasn't in the least
> advocating the possibility of a peaceful transition. What I was trying to
> get at, was that, we need to use every possible method to advance our
> cause. Peasant revolutions can build socialism, *IF* they have a workers'
> state to aid them.
>
> We can't simply write off peasant guerilla movements.  Of course, without
> a workers' state to aid them, they are doomed to degeneration. Or even,
> using Soviet tanks to impose workers' states.  Property relations are
> destroyed, something different from capitalism happened, but groups like
> the ISO (SWP-UK) refuse to recognize it, because they have their a prioi
> definitions.
>
> Marc, "the Chegitz," Luzietti
> personal homepage: http://shrike.depaul.edu/~mluziett
> political homepage: http://shrike.depaul.edu/~mluziett/chegitz.html
>
> o/~ When an eel lunges out and it bites off your snout, 'ats amore o/~
>
>
>
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