Re: More on Market Bloody Socialism

[Justin Schwartz <jschwart@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Would firms under MS be able to hire, fire, or redeploy workers? This
doesn't capture the logic of a cooperative system. Firms could bring new
workers in as cooperators rather than hire workers since workers aren't
employees but cooperators. Workers couldn't be fired, although coops would
presumably have provisions for buying out cooperators, particularly for
cause. As to redeployment ewithin the firm, this and all other decisions
about the firm's operations would be subject to democratic control.

Is labor a cost in the system? No: the return to labor in a cooperative
system is _profit_, which isn't counted as a codsts iunder capitalism!
Although from the workers' point of view it might be--in capitalism, that
is, since profit is surplus workers don't get. Since in cooperativbe MS
they do, there's an incentive to maximize or at least ioncrease labor
"costs" (that is, profits) per worker. Savings have to come from elsewhere.

As you observe in a previous post, in MS or any market system unemployment
is possible for Keynesian reasons. That's why you need Keynesian
solutions, a state guarantee of full employment. I do note that Mondragon
appears to have pretty much solved the unemployment problem. It almost
never has to buy any cooperators out. Whether this could be generalized if
the system were the main sort of organization in the economy requires study.

Doug, about eight months ago we talked about your doing a series in LBO on
alternatives to capitalism. Your remark about Roemer suggest that you have
been giving the models some thought. Any progress on the series?

--Justin

On Sat, 27 Jan 1996, Doug Henwood wrote:

> At 12:08 AM 1/27/96, Justin Schwartz wrote:
>
> >Why can't you have product markets without labor markets? We ban all sorts
> >of markets. It's illegal to sell body parts or people, for example. I
> >don't see why the existence os some markets implies the existence of
> >markets in everything. Or causes it, either.
>
> Competitive product markets work by rewarding the efficient and punishing
> the inefficient, and for most businesses, the cost of labor is the major
> cost. How would the disciplines of competitive product markets work, then,
> if labor weren't treated as the input to production it is under K'ism? If
> firms under market socialism were free to set prices, would they be free to
> hire, fire, and redeploy workers?
>
> K'ism is at least logically consistent in that it commodifies *everything*
> it touches. I'm not sure how you can commodify only some things, and keep a
> prophylactic over the others (i.e. human workers).
>
> Roemer's version of capital markets is utterly foolish, but that's another
> topic entirely.
>
> Doug
>
> --
>
> Doug Henwood
> Left Business Observer
> 250 W 85 St
> New York NY 10024-3217
> USA
> +1-212-874-4020 voice
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> email: <dhenwood@xxxxxxxxx>
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>
>
>
>
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> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:22:11 -0500 (EST)
> From: Justin Schwartz <jschwart@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: re-market socialism
> To: marxism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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>
> Sure. In the Schweickart model the "beggars" wish for fuinds and get them,
> if their plan is good, by applying to the state bank. So the beggars do ride.
>
> Next.
>
> --Justin
>
>
> On Fri, 26 Jan 1996, Paul Cockshott wrote:
>
> > Justin
> > ------
> > As to the former point, the market will only
> > exerrt a downward pressure on the profits of less competitive firms,
> > which
> > will have an incentive to improve to become more profitable. It will pose
> > workers with a choice about several ways to decrease their costs, but
> > cutting corners on working conditions will not be their first choice. It
> > will likely be their last. They will explore more worker-friendly
> > improvements.
> >
> > Paul
> > ----
> > If wishes were horses beggars would ride.
> >
> > It is one thing to desire to improve productivity in
> > 'worker friendly' ways, another to achieve it in the
> > absence of funds. Lack of capital is exploitation's
> > soil.
> >
> >
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>
>
>
>
>
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