Re: Lenin, Gramsci and problems of party form

[Chegitz Guevara <mluziett@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Sat, 2 Dec 1995, Kevin Cabral wrote:
> On Sat, ? Dec 1995, Uncle Lou wrote:

>       Please do not confuse social democracy (socialism) as Swedish
> social democracy. The Swedes had some initative perhaps in the 1970s when
> the party was at the peak of its power, but since then they essentially
> reniged all their demands and put Sweden on the same level of America,
> just with nationalized health care .  

But they never put socialism, in other words, the *ABOLITION OF
CAPITALISM* on the agenda. Since 1914, Social Democracy has been about
making capitalism more livable for the workers ***of the imperialist
countries***, and unleashing "Freekorps" against them when the workers
wanted to go further. Since the 70's, they haven't even been able to
deviler on the first, and have been more interested in protecting the
interests of capitla against unreasonable workers. In real terms, Social
Democracy is the party of the bourgeois state bureaucracy.

> > Social democracy has nothing to do with the project Marx was involved
> > with. It is a betrayal of Marx's intention to help build a political
> > movement to wipe the capitalist system off of the face of the earth.
>
>       So worker's organizing to run industry is against Marx's demands?
> So perhaps you feel that Marx was in favor of a nationalized economy where
> perhaps decisions where made by a small few? How vulgar I feel that idea
> would be, is this how you would like to live?

I believe you were the one that talked about democratising private
industry. What we Marxists talk about is abolishing private industry.

>       I will agree with you of course that Sweden is in a very similar
> state as American welfare capitalism, though I would argue that conditions
> are much better in Sweden for most people than in America.

Again, you miss the point. It isn't about who has a better capitalism, it
is about getting rid of capitalism.
        
> > Social democrats have not developed the sense of self-criticism that
> > ex-Trotskyists, CPers and other revolutionaries have developed since the
> > collapse of the Berlin Wall. They look back at their history and it seems
> > as pure as the driven snow. Aaah, Norman Thomas. Aaah, social security.
> > Aaah, kibbutzim in plucky Israel.
>
>       Please tell me where you stand on what you will do after you crush
> the capitalist system so I can have some basis to argue you upon, as you
> have'nt presented a single progressive idea in your entire rebuttal of
> socialism.

If you had lurked for awhile, before jumping right in (which there is
nothing wrong with) you would have had ample opportunity to see Uncle
Lou's politics, which are, like most of us on this list, communism. We
vary in our shades of communism, but there are only a handfull of avowed
SocDems, such as yourself. We also have a few post-Marxists, er,
Modernists.

> > Aaah, bullshit. Social democracy is "socialist" support for WWI. Social
> > democracy is collaboration with colonialism. Social democracy is
> > ineffectiveness before Hitler, Franco and Mussolini.
>
>       What are you talking about? The SP did NOT support WWI, and I
> don't believe any socialist groups around did. I have no idea what this
> ignorant slam has to do with building a coherant program for socialist
> advancement in America. Perhaps next time you go off with the knife you
> can at least remember to sharpen it with some worthwhile analysis or at
> least a coherant discussion. As this sort of knee-jerk reaction does not
> advance your cause the slightest bit.

No, it is true, the SPUSA did not support the first World War, but it did
support the second. Part of the reason it didn't was that it was a
revolutionary party at the time. The SPs of Germany, France and Belgium
voted for WWI, and the Mensheviks supported it after it began.  This was
the cause of the split of the revolutionaries from the Second
International. You obviously haven't studied your history. The SPD,
allong with the KPD, allowed Hitler to take power. The SPD murdered Rosa
Luxemburg and Karl Leibnickt, among others. In the USA, the SP led the
working class back towards reformism, following WWII, not that the CP was
a much better alternative.

> > Advocate social democracy on this list to your heart's content. Just
> > prepare yourself for some stinging replies.
>                                                                       
>       Nice, do you defend biblical creationism also perhaps?

Stupid, stupid remark. Uncle Lou's gonna have you over the coals now.

> Kevin

Marc, "the Chegitz," Luzietti
http://shrike.depaul.edu/~mluziett

I'm not anti-society, society's anti-me
I'm not anti-religion, religion's anti-me
I'm not anti-tradition, tradition's anti-me
I'm not anti-anything, I just want to be free.

Mike Muir of Suicidal Tendencies



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