Re: Antifascism, Militant/ Re: Challenge to Cockshott

[Jeffrey Booth <booth2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

        Here we go again...

On Fri, 8 Sep 1995 wdrb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

> On the big London Poll Tax riot:
>
> my impression was that there were at least 100,000
> there that day. I've been on dozens of big London
> marches and in loads of big football crowds.
> I don't think I'm exagerating the numbers.
> The rioting started about 2pm outside
> the entrance to Downing Street
> with Whitehall and Trafalgar Square
> packed with demonstrators.
>
> The demonstrators were a cross section
> of the working class. You cannot
> devide them into a small number of middle
> class anarchists and a mass of 'ordinary
> workers' being 'led' by a militant
> leadership.

        Who led the march?  The rioting was started by a small group.


That is a ludicrous misrepresentation.
> Much of the crowd was very working class.
> All were angry and determined. The rioting
> went on all afternoon with fighting
> in Trafalgar Square and into the evening
> with the West End in the hands of the rioters
> until midnite and selective attacks and looting
> of rich peoples shops and cars and clubs.
>

> The whole crowd supported the rioting

        Outrage at the ensuing police riot is different from supporting a
riot.  Did people say that morning:  "Well Luv, we're off to the riot
now!  Make sure you bring the nappies for the kids... ."


> and as with all riots peoples participation
> varied from very brave hand to hand fighting with
> the police to less brave or physical people
> (like me) shouting and chanting. But there
        
        I guessed the bit above already.

s
> was no doubt in my mind where the feelings
> of the crowd lay.
>
> And the riot rocked Britain. Imagine
> half a million people rioting around the
> Whitehouse for 12 hours out of the control
> of the police. Has that ever happened?

        One persons riot is another persons uprising.  I call what
happened in LA, an uprising.  I call what you're referring to, a fantastic
demonstration fucked-up by agent provacateurs and Yobbo Anarchists.

>
> And (if my memory serves) Strangeways
> prison in Manchester erupted that
> night in the bitterest prison riot
> in the UK this century.
>
> Of course Thatcher was bought down by the whole
> campaign, the hundres (perhaps thosands)
> that went to jail, the riots and violent
> protest in towns and cities throughout the country
> and the millions who refused to pay.
>

        That's the Laddie!


> But I can remember with absolute vividness
> standing on top of a builders porta-cabin
> in the afternoon in Whitehall watching a major
> riot developing and knowing for certain that
> Thatcher was finished.
>
> As the good class struggler you are Jeff,
> if you'd have been there you'd have a different
> view of it than the one you have which seems to me
> to be a story designed to emphasise the importance
> of Militant at the expense of what happened.
>

        Not emphasing anything.  The thread started (at least in my mind)
with a misrepresentation of the forces on the Left in Scotland.  Maybe
you believe mass, protest movements arise spontaneously.  I know from
experience that while there is an element of spontaneity in any movement;
most organizing is hard, slogging work.


> Theres lots of very militant and very brave working
> class people in britain, only a small proportion
> have ever been in any trot vanguard party>

        It may come as a suprise to you but your knowledge of Militant
Labour seems very limited.  This is a good example.  Militant Labour does
not consider itself a vanguard party.  And god knows what you're
definition of "Trot." is.


 And anarchist ish militant culture and attitudes
> are very strong in popular youth culture.
>
> Punk was massive in the UK. Punks didn't join
>
        I know a few Punks in Militant.


Militant or the SWP. The people on the poll tax
> riot were a whole mix of labour, trade unionists,
> .....
> to divide it into politically innocent workers
> needing leadership, worthy Militant leaders,

        Now see here my good man... don't go putting words in my mouth
that I didn't say.  (How's that Chris B. ?)


> middle class anarchist wankers might help
> your world view but it doesn't bare
> much relation to what was there.

        If you think rioting is the way to go then I might suggest next
time you get your hands dirty and join in yourself.  Until you're willing
to do that, you might want to avoid the romantic excesses of
Anarcho-Syndacalism that you seem intent on propagating.  (I hope you're
reading this Chris B. !)

                                -- Jeff Booth  In The Belly of the Beast


>
> Will Brown  Bristol  England
>


     --- from list marxism@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ---

     ------------------